Thought I'd share this short story:

Girl I know, just got her licence. Decides to take a trip down some country lanes when the roads are wet from an icy morning. Doing about 35, said girl oversteers into a right-hand bend and the car meets a hedge.

"I steered into the skid and I just kept spinning!" she protested to us today.

"The car was going to spin right and the back was swinging out left, so you steered left to correct it and straighten the car?" I asked.

"No, I steered right! INTO the skid!" was the reply.

illepall Said girl looked sheepish when I explained that "into the skid" means steer into the direction the back is going, not the front.

While this is probably clear to anyone who has a basic grasp of how cars work, I do have to say that "steer into the skid" doesn't provide any useful information at all for someone who doesn't know these basics. When I was at driving school I of course knew what you have to do to counter oversteering, but the first thing they threw at the fellow learners heads was a very similar and just as confusing phrase.

If the car hadn't had power steering she wouldn't have been able to steer in the wrong direction and would've been fine.

(...My experience... I was asked a few times wether I could park that car without powersteering because she didn't have the physical ability to do so.)

Vain

'Into the Skid' is fairly ambiguous in all honesty.

Whilst I think that correcting oversteer is a natural reaction that is inbuilt into every human being (stick someone is a kart and they'll do it without thinking), the trouble is people actually try to think about how to recover, misunderstand the phrases use, and actually override the cars natural tendency to recover.

Personally, every one who learns to drive a car should have at least 6 months on a moped/scooter type thingy (or a proper motorcycle), and a full days skidpan training. It might cost more to do, but it would save more lives then any country-wide Gatso 'initative'

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While this is probably clear to anyone who has a basic grasp of how cars work, I do have to say that "steer into the skid" doesn't provide any useful information at all for someone who doesn't know these basics.

Agreed, I don't know if they explain what it means in the Highway Code but they should.

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Personally, every one who learns to drive a car should have at least 6 months on a moped/scooter type thingy (or a proper motorcycle), and a full days skidpan training. It might cost more to do, but it would save more lives then any country-wide Gatso 'initative'

Not sure about the moped thing, I guess this is for tuning observation skills? IMO, that's pretty well-covered in UK driving lessons. +1 for the skidpan though, as this is something people aren't generally taught.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Personally, every one who learns to drive a car should have at least 6 months on a moped/scooter type thingy (or a proper motorcycle)

bad idea ... youd never get me on anything with 2 wheels on public roads ...theres far too many idiots around who will happily take the life of a motorcycle driver by not bothering to look where theyre going
besides how many drivers sit on a moped for years without even realizing they dont steer the damn thing with their body ?

the skidpan training is a good idea though ... but on a proper one the type where they can hit you with random bumps on either side of the car and stuff like that

Maybe it's changed recently, but I think the driving test/lessons on 'observation' are just rubbish. You are never taught to look at the road surface (e.g. changes of colour due to changes of texture/grip/diesel/ice), white lines, banding etc. All you seem to get told whilst learning to drive it spend more time looking in your mirrors that looking out of the front, shuffling the steering in the most dangerous method known to man, and to generally drive a lot slower than the surrounding traffic, inciting accidents.

Do not get me started on how appaling the driving test is at testing your ability to use the roads safely with millions of other people. It's awful. Drive like on your test and you will die in a motor car at some point.

Edit: This applies to UK driving tests. It may well be better on the continent...

Oh, and Mr Shotglass, whilst I agree idiots are dangeous now, after a while when more and more people have filtered through the system using bikes then everyone will have an understanding of what it's like and be able to take into account the needs of other road users and other vehicle operators. But yes, a 30mph (45km/h) moped on many roads is dangerous, but why not allow faster bikes for people learning to drive cars so they can go with the flow of the traffic more easily.

Besides, it was an idealist observation - practicality in real life is a whole different boiling container of sea life.

Granted, that shuffling seems to be a UK thing. They'd laugh you out of the car if you did that here

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Maybe it's changed recently, but I think the driving test/lessons on 'observation' are just rubbish. You are never taught to look at the road surface (e.g. changes of colour due to changes of texture/grip/diesel/ice), white lines, banding etc.

Just passed my test, and... You're absolutely right about the above.

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All you seem to get told whilst learning to drive it spend more time looking in your mirrors that looking out of the front, shuffling the steering in the most dangerous method known to man

Also true. But when people pass, I'd bet 90% of them don't look in their mirrors as much as they did on the L test and don't shuffle the steering- include me in that 90%.

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and to generally drive a lot slower than the surrounding traffic, inciting accidents.

That's not their fault tbh- blame the speed limits, not the driver. If the limit's 40 and the other traffic is doing 45-50, the learner/test candidate has to do 40. Even now, I don't go any higher than 5mph above the limit, simply as there's Gatsos all over the freaking place.

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It's awful. Drive like on your test and you will die in a motor car at some point.

Probably true, luckily most people don't drive like they're on their test when they have passed. However, some people go too far the other way and drive like a nutter without knowing their limits or the car's- and that's when accidents happen.

Apologies for length. "I think that was a bit too long", as the actress said to the bishop.

EDIT: Android XP- the UK is the only place they teach people to do that. Don't think it'll last much longer.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Maybe it's changed recently, but I think the driving test/lessons on 'observation' are just rubbish. You are never taught to look at the road surface (e.g. changes of colour due to changes of texture/grip/diesel/ice), white lines, banding etc. All you seem to get told whilst learning to drive it spend more time looking in your mirrors that looking out of the front, shuffling the steering in the most dangerous method known to man, and to generally drive a lot slower than the surrounding traffic, inciting accidents.

The driving lessons I've had from my instructor have covered most of what you mentioned and he's finally given up telling me to shuffle the wheel. The only thing I've felt could have been better taught were the emergency stops with no emphasis on the fact that in a car without ABS you don't just stand on the brake pedal. My driving instructor has very actively encouraged keeping up with the flow so long as it doesn't involve speeding, given the number of other learners I end up sitting behind I guess this isn't the norm. A couple of things that really piss me off with the driving test driving style though is the amount of observation you have to do pulling away on even a blindingly obviously clear piece of road and the amount of riding/holding the car with the clutch.

Practical hasn't been too bad so far (test in 2 weeks) the theory however was a completely pointless exercise, the clicky video didn't test anything and the theory questions seemed to revelove around trams, what to do if your car caught fire in a tunnel and tire blow outs. I had a tire blow out at 60mph and unlike what the DSA would have you belive it wasn't the end of the world

just keep the fornt wheel pointing where you want to go... well as much as you can anyway

I took one of those video tests for a laugh a couple of years back (they hadn't introduced them when I learnt).

I failed.

Something along the lines of 1567 out of 56 hazards spotted. Apparently spotting the bicycle half a mile down the road is considered a bad thing. It's only when you have to swerve that you should have spotted it.

Quote from tristancliffe :

I took one of those video tests for a laugh a couple of years back (they hadn't introduced them when I learnt).

I failed.

Something along the lines of 1567 out of 56 hazards spotted. Apparently spotting the bicycle half a mile down the road is considered a bad thing. It's only when you have to swerve that you should have spotted it.

Yeah the only good thing about the DVD is it makes you realise that to score 5 points (the maximum you can get) you must click at about the stage when you need to perform an emergency stop to avoid the obstacle. You can still get some points if you click a few minutes after you'd have had an impact, but if you click when you see a hazard it just sends you away with 0 illepall

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just keep the fornt wheel pointing where you want to go... well as much as you can anyway

Now why don't they say that instead of "steer in..."?

Quote from TiJay :

Now why don't they say that instead of "steer in..."?

i know! i always told my gf when she was a learner to point the wheels where you want to go, even if the car slides. she was able to grasp that much easier than "steer into the slide".

Quote from TiJay :

Now why don't they say that instead of "steer in..."?

couple thousand years of island inbr...... anyway i always though steering into a slide was what you would do in rfactor and exactly what your friend did
countersteering is more like steering out of the slide in my book

I'm no big fan of the UK driving test system either (who is?), I failed the first time and got 3 minors on my second, all because of observations. It must have been for not looking ahead enough as there's no way it was for not checking the mirrors enough.

Additionally, driving tests are no good when you do it once at 17 and then you get a license that lasts until you die (unless you rack up too many points). I know the majority on the road would fail a good test today, or even a mediocre one like we have in place now.

My next door neighbour is a prime example, lovely old man, still knows his stuff (generally speaking) and is technically minded. Can probably drive alright but lacks any observational awareness and doesn't know when to indicate (he explained to me an incident where he nearly plowed straight into a learner, it was obvious to me the learner was completely in the right, but he didn't really know and is obviously too stubborn to be corrected).

Another example is myself, I passed my test then didn't drive for three years, at which point I got a hire car with work and drove two thirds the length of the country and back, I could barely remember what to do. I shouldn't have been on the roads (wasn't going to miss the opportunity though), although I'd be better at using the clutch and gearstick now, I'd spent too long with my momo back then.

First of all, 35mph is a bit fast on ice.... illepall

Second of all, there is something I am considering doing when I get my drivers licesnse. In my county, the local Police department has a program that costs $200USD. You go to this 1.1mi simulated-road course and skidpad, and they teach you Accident avoidance, stuff like that. It sounds like fun, and seems like it would be very useful. I can get my license nine months from now! Anyway, here is the course website/info:
http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/police/police34a.htm

I'll ask my parents about it.

Quote from wheel4hummer :

Second of all, there is something I am considering doing when I get my drivers licesnse. In my county, the local Police department has a program that costs $200USD. You go to this 1.1mi simulated-road course and skidpad, and they teach you Accident avoidance, stuff like that. It sounds like fun, and seems like it would be very useful. I can get my license nine months from now! Anyway, here is the course website/info:
http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/police/police34a.htm

I wouldn't have really bothered with that kind of course unless it will save you money on your insurance, you'll probably go a lot faster and learn more about car control on a conventional racing experience course.

What is this obsession about tire blowouts, an 8 hour course on them! I really don't get the point in worrying about them if they happen at a good moment in a straight line you just hold the car in a straight line and slowly stop otherwise general car control understanding will be far more useful than any of the tire blow out crap in the theory test

i didn't know you lived in fairfax.. huh

around here Road Atlanta sponsors the Audi driving school which is a defensive driving class (they do either 1 day or 2 day courses, and also have racing classes you can take)

if you aren't required to take one, but you do anyway, they are good for using in court if you happen to get into some trouble


as far as the whole saying "steer into the skid" .. i still hate it, during drivers ed i was like.. that makes.. no sense.. the skid is out back anyway, its making people think to much about it lol.. just.. .. god know what countersteer is and we're all good!

We've got a mandatory driver's training in Austria now (along with two "feedback drives": driving with a driving instructor again), which you have to do about half a year after you got your licence... Honestly, I don't wanna miss a single minute I spent on it... It taught me so much about the limits of a car and makes you aware that even "slow" speeds can be very dangerous, if handled wrong...

@w4h: I says "Shuffle Steering" even on there... Other than that, a very well thought out curriculum... Just depends on how deep they go into those topics to really having a learning effect...

@ajp: Surely, without ABS you shouldn't just stamp on the brake, but I was told by my driver's training instructor (who was from the motorsport) that as long as you lock all four wheels, you'll go in the same direction as before (even when spinning) and an untrained driver will stop the car earlier than if he tried interval braking...

Quote from tristancliffe :

Personally, every one who learns to drive a car should have at least 6 months on a moped/scooter type thingy (or a proper motorcycle), and a full days skidpan training.

I can vouch for that. Here, and in most other northern (snowy) countries I assume, a trip to the skidpan is part of driver's ed, and in my opinion it's highly useful. Taking the car out and actually trying to recover a slide, avoiding obstacles on snow, and just generally mocking about is the only way to learn this stuff. (Great fun too ) Reading about it in a book is pointless.

Boy, things have changed. I only had to pick up a book on road rules (road signs is all it was basically) and read it. When I turned 16, I went to the police station, took a ridiculously easy written test (again, mostly just road signs) and they sent me a learners permit. I was suppose to drive on that with an "adult" in the car at all times and couldn't drive past midnight or on a 4 lane highway. The following week, I went back to the police station and drove a course in the parking lot. It had stops where I needed to use the turn signal, an S curve that I had to keep between 10 and 15 mph in (I did it at 25 or 30 ) and parallel park. I recieved a stamp on my permit and my permanent license came in the mail. Simple.

I did not have to take lessons at all. Lessons were available through the high school, but wasn't mandatory.

Quote from nikimere :

i know! i always told my gf when she was a learner to point the wheels where you want to go, even if the car slides. she was able to grasp that much easier than "steer into the slide".

Simpler solutions always work better, here is again proof of it

Hmm, I normally drive something like 50mph on ice, but sometimes lot faster, I think fastest speed that I have done on ice was around 105mph, no not with rally tires but normal road tires and yes it was bit crazy, but that other idiot did accelerate when I was overtaking him so I needed to speed up a bit

But one should always match speed to grip and situation, there are situations where 20mph is too much, speed limits have nothing to do with safe speeds, they do serve other purpose

Quote from mrodgers :

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Jeez. I knew it was easy to get a license in the US, but that sounded a bit too easy. How long ago was this? (If you don't mind me asking )

When I took my license about 7 years ago I had to take a theory course (around 5-6 nights I think), about 5-10 driving lessons with an instructor, a night driving course, an overtaking course and a course at the skidpan. This is all mandatory. After that, theres the theory test, and then finally the actual driving test, with a quick "safety check" before you get in and drive. (Check the oil, or the brake servo, or something to that effect.) Cost me about 15,000 kroner which is around $2,400 US. Now it's even more expensive since you have to pay tax on top of the price, which you didn't before.