Hi everyone,

I've been racing the LFS demo for about a year now but upgraded a week or so ago to S2...

I've been using the STCC servers a lot because I like the feeling that there is a goal to the racing besides a simple win.

However, I've noticed that many people seem to be misunderstanding and possibly even deliberately abusing the blue flag rules.

As an example, it seems many faster drivers, when lapping expect a driver under Blue Flag to leave the racing line and slow down excessively in order to let them pass. This is not in accordance with the rules which say the Blue Flag driver should maintain the line, and slow sufficiently to allow the faster car to pass.

The reason I bring this up is that some of the slower drivers seem exceedingly anxious whenever the Blue Flag appears to the point that they slow down excessively and veer off the racing line. In many cases this is more risky to the overtaking driver since no one knows where they (the blue flagged driver) will go, it also means that racers under the Blue Flag are ceasing their own race for a period.

A couple of days ago, some guys took to berating one particular racer for apparently not giving way under a blue flag. I was watching the racing at the time and I watched a bit more closely after the event. The Blue Flag racer had in fact followed the rules, they'd maintained the (their) line and slowed a little to allow the faster driver to pass. However the driver doing the lapping couldn't or wouldn't pass at these times and started being rather unkind to the blue flag driver for not pulling off the line and slowing down further.

After this verbal assualt went on for about 10 mins, the other slower drivers on the track became very jittery - in fact I was able to pass many people just by tooting my horn a bit, at which point they just leave the line and virtually come to a stop (and there was no Blue Flag to boot)!

So what do you guys think, should the Blue Flag rules in the sticky be a little more explicit? For example, if 2 cars are racing and they are both being lapped by a 3rd, what happens then? What should be the penalty for people who seemingly abuse the blue flag rules in order to gain positions?

Thanks for reading!

Toad.

I'm usually in the midfield on the STCC servers and when blue-flagged, I slow down and move away from the racing line. Reason? When I was racing on the Redline servers, I would hold my racing line and just slow down under a blue flag. The person lapping me wasn't too pleased as he had to change lines to overtake.

Welcome to LFS............

BLUE FLAG BLUE FLAG MOVE OUTTA MY WAY NOOB.

yes many (infact most) people do not understand blue flag rules, if hasn't changed in 4 years, I doubt it's going to change (much) now, but we can hope..........

Welcome to Lfs, dude!

There are many racers who think the blue flagged car has to shift-s instantly. In fact you said it right - the slower guy should try to act predictable (hold the line or move over a LITTLE BIT), the one who overtakes has to find a way through without putting both of them at risk.
If you're a fair driver then you'd simply wait for the blue flagged car to move away or slow down without shouting. If someone keeps screaming at you, you could also be unfair and slam the brakes while in front of him, spin out and take him with you(Don't do that, :thumbsdow this is very fierce!) You could also do that in a more subtile manner and let him pass before a hairpin - usually the guys brake too late then and eat wall.
I usually try to leave the ideal line (I'm slow, but not a noob) when blue flagged, and after I've lapped somebody I usually press my "thanks buddy"-button. That way everyone's happy!:laola:

greetz

der butz

When i played NR2003, it was common etiquite(SP?) to leave a line and
indicate through a message which line you were leaving. Ex. Pass low<<<
or Pass high>>>. You didn't have to slow down, just leave that line open.
Also, slightly of topic, you were supposed to indicate through a message
when you were pitting/exiting the pits. That would solve a few problems
in longer races or midrace joinings when people are exiting the pits in the
middle of a race.

Quote :

rules which say the Blue Flag driver should maintain the line

Which rules would these be?

Common sense rules

I have much experience in being lapped, believe me ;-)
A good racer knows exactly when and how to pass!
A noob just screams around and achieves nothing.

greetz

der butz

Quote from BurnOut69 :

Common sense rules

Quote :

the Blue Flag rules in the sticky

Ah I think I know which sticky the OP is referring to: http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=2146

Quote :

- If you are being lapped by a faster car: The car behind you is consistently faster than you and has managed to travel one more lap than you have. He is about to overtake you and the blue flag is displayed to warn you of his presence.
In this case you are hindering his progress and must allow him to pass you as soon as it is safe to do so (you can't be expected to yield while negotiating a chicane or high speed corner) Hold your line don't fight the other car, do not make any sudden movements left or right, ease off slightly and let him pass. He is a lap ahead of you and you are not fighting him for position. You must not hold him up

Also please note that it is a guideline more than a rule, because the action required is not fixed, but as very correctly BurnOut69 pointed out depends on common sense. Whether you like it or not, there will be people who do not agree with you. If you feel gross injustice has taken place, save the replay and report the offending driver(s). Blue flags have been discussed several times, and the discussion always revolves around the same issue: Different people have different interpretations of the same situation due to various variables.

Hadnt read the sticky, but just think about it: you're about to lap another car. Would you expect him to cross the track in front of you (get off line) or to maintain his line and slightly go off to let you pass?

There you go

It can be very difficult passing people who are blue flagged when you yourself are fighting for poistion. To explain what I mean imagine that car A is under a blue flag being followed by two cars, B (1st place, say) and C (2nd place).

The guy in car B slows behind car A until it is safe to pass, however, the guy in car C is impatient and starts trying to force his way past the guy in car B who is waiting for a good passing opportunity. This can lead to the guy in car B having to try and force his way past car A to stop himself being put in a really bad position by the impatience of the guy in car C.

All it takes is one faster driver in a pack following a back marker to try and start forcing their way past at every corner before everyone else is on edge and starts making mistakes (this is the main point i am trying to make).

I think the main symptom of this problem is that in professional racing (where the rule originates is my point here) usually the slower drivers aren't a lot slower than the faster ones so the following car does not have to slow too much before a decent pass is available, however, in LFS the range of skill levels varies wildly so you can come across some people who really slow the race down but aren't necessarily easy to pass due to track conditions and so forth. This can breed a lot of impatience in the faster drivers. If you are really very slow and, essentially, not part of the race, maybe you should consider getting out of the way or practicing offline or on less busy servers until you do not represent so much of a hindrance.

I've noticed myself suffering from the impatience I mentioned and it always annoys me when I do, but more often than not it's because there's someone behind trying everything he can to pass me when I'm trying to wait for a safe opportunity to pass the slower car ahead. I can see why they are doing so but it's not really all that nice is it, it's just escalating the situation and usually leads to badness and the back marker being blamed.

The only time it really annoys me is when it is someone who has joined the race several laps in and is, therefore, several laps behind anyone else. When I'm blue flagged in such a situation, if I feel I may be any kind of hindrance to the following cars I do everything I can to let them pass because I am essentially hotlapping whilst waiting for the next race to start and not, in fact, part of the race at all. That's just polite.

Having said all that, you could say that the guy in car B should let car C get past them in an effort to stay clean but I really don't like caving to such bully boy tactics.

At the end of the day I like to try and race clean and I also enjoy races where I'm part of the lead pack and we have to try and get through backmarkers - they add an interesting element to the racing.

Quote from BurnOut69 :

Hadnt read the sticky, but just think about it: you're about to lap another car. Would you expect him to cross the track in front of you (get off line) or to maintain his line and slightly go off to let you pass?

There you go

It depends on what's ahead, to be honest. I can think of a situation where crossing the track to let a driver past is expected. At this point I must inform you that you are explaining this to the wrong person. I know how to pass and how to get passed. I asked for the rules because a sticky was mentioned, not because I disagreed with the OP.

Hockquan - the situation you describe is a very tricky sitaution, certainly when you are playing a computer game - however if you were to apply it to the real world of racing they would say that the car behind you has every right to fight you for position whilst you are trying to get past the backmarker.

Of course the backmarker can help the sitaution by trying to get out of the way as sufficiently as possible but then that's why in racing the commentators always make mention of the havok the backmakers can make for two cars/bikes approaching who are fighting for track position.

Any spillage that would occur from the situation unless someone was blatantly in the wrong would likely be put down to being a racing incident.

So that probably clears up nohing as far as you are concerned with the LFS servers

Quote from Toad :

A couple of days ago, some guys took to berating one particular racer for apparently not giving way under a blue flag. I was watching the racing at the time and I watched a bit more closely after the event.

In fairness, 'after the event' is a bit late to be forming an opinion about what happened.

Quote :

[...]After this verbal assualt went on for about 10 mins, the other slower drivers on the track became very jittery - in fact I was able to pass many people just by tooting my horn a bit, at which point they just leave the line and virtually come to a stop (and there was no Blue Flag to boot)!

A lot of people become jittery when somebody starts tooting their horn. Sounding the horn for this reason is as bad as spamming 'blue flag!' - it's not acceptable behaviour IMO.

Quote :

So what do you guys think, should the Blue Flag rules in the sticky be a little more explicit? For example, if 2 cars are racing and they are both being lapped by a 3rd, what happens then? What should be the penalty for people who seemingly abuse the blue flag rules in order to gain positions?

The problems usually stem from predictability. Some drivers under blue flag seem to be not too sure what to do, and end up weaving. Others ignore the flag and keep trying to race. Some slow down, only to speed up again at an inopportune moment. Equally, the lapping racers should not be spamming 'blue flag!', nor should they go for a pass on a chicane or other hazardous place.
I agree that there needs to be more education on what a blue flag means, but not all LFSers read this forum, so how do we get the message across?

Serp.

Quote from Serpentine :

I agree that there needs to be more education on what a blue flag means, but not all LFSers read this forum, so how do we get the message across?

Serp.

Yes it is a problem disseminating this info, but the posts in this thread so far show that at least some people were not aware of the blue flag rules as written or if they were, are not implementing them on the track.

For anyone else reading, yes the sticky is in this forum under flags (see link a few posts up) and a very similar text is in the LFS manual here

http://en.lfsmanual.net/wiki/Driving_Guides

Take care!

Toad.

How many laps does a regular STCC "pub" race have?
Is it enough to be lapped? Wow.

seems to me that, in every motor sport I have ever seen, the leaders always have trouble with slow traffic. In many close races the winner is the driver who gets around the traffic best. How many times have you seen #2 or #3 pass the leader because he was stuck behind a lapped car and the second place driver was able to sling-shot around both? I've seen this in ALMS, BTCC, Nascar, motocross, etc, etc.

Slow cars have their own race to win. It is up to the faster traffic to get around them. As the previously mentioned guideline clearly states, the slower traffic should just be predictable.

Direct quote from the IMSA rule book, FIA is similar:

When the times comes to let the other pass, According to IMSA code Article 6, subarticle 1, "It is the
responsibility of both the overtaking and overtaken Drivers to assure safe passing at racing speeds. A car
traveling alone may use the full width of the track. Passing may be either right or left depending on the conditions of
the moment".

I ran my first two STCC races this afternoon on the STCC 1b New & Bronze server. I have to admit that I was appalled at some of the behavior I witnessed in those two races.

Since I'm new to LFS, I'm still not quite up to full speed. I frequently get blue flagged and make every attempt to get clear of overtaking drivers as soon as a safe opportunity presents itself

There were several instances where I would be driving clear of other drivers (read: backmarker) and would see faster drivers approach. If it was a clear straight, I'd move off the racing line and lift. However, in several cases, I had to maintain the line, particularly through a couple of the tighter corners and chicanes. These instances always had the overtaking driver blowing their horn impatiently and after one or two blasts I'd get a NASCARish bump, sending me offline, and in a couple of cases, off track.

Being my first races, and obviously running in backmarker mode, I made no fuss, but proceeded on, attempting diligently to stay clear of the faster drivers and just finish the race. In fact, I really couldn't even tell you who the worst offending drivers were and really have no desire to point fingers at this time.

However, in future attempts I shall note any blatant offenders to proper overtaking etiquette, and attempt to contact them back channel afterwords. If that fails to elicit a positive response, I'll have to resort to the proper reporting methods.

BTW, to anyone I raced with this afternoon, I sincerely apologize for the Turn 1 mêlée I may have inadvertently caused... :doh:

Quote from NoQuarter :

BTW, to anyone I raced with this afternoon, I sincerely apologize for the Turn 1 mêlée I may have inadvertently caused... :doh:

I think I was involved in that, maybe. Half the grid knocked out by tail-end-charlie diving into the first corner at full speed and compacting everyone else?

I agree with your sentiments about blue flags. On the other hand, maybe you and I (I'm also a slow driver) need to in habit a slower-paced server. On the gripping hand, I really like STCC and enjoy working towards a goal (points) as opposed to just wining.

Just checked, animal, and we weren't in any races together. Maybe soon...

Like you, I prefer the goal oriented racing at STCC. I know I will improve by racing against faster guys, just need to find a way to get faster while staying clean

Quote :

Is it enough to be lapped? Wow.

League races are indeed longer, but some races on the STCC public servers are well over 20 minutes. It seems the only reason public servers had 5 lap races for so long is because that is what the servers where set too....

Quote :

I'll have to resort to the proper reporting methods.

I'm quite happy to dock a small number of license points for drivers pressuring back markers to get out of the way with blue flag messages which are utterly unecessary, and depending on the incident and level of abuse between drivers i'll go right up to a short ban if a driver derides you publicly for adhering to proper racing blue flag rules.

If a leader removes you from the circuit whilst you are under blue, then that's wrecking, which is a longer ban - and if it's a second offence a very long ban indeed (ie: permanent).

In short if you respect proper racing rules under blue flag then any stewarding decision will back you up. There are no '3 flag marshalls' to pass in LFS, so I guess the next best thing is not to be holding up the car behind for two sectors running. This is the nearest to a rule of guideline as I can come up with, but i'm not casting it in stone.

EDIT: Flashing lights at a backmarker is deemed acceptable and can help a backmarker identify which car they need to let past. Tooting a horn is to be considered a middle finger, and treated as such.

At Conedodgers ([CD] 1 Servers is set to AS3 10 laps + Pit) 99% of people who get blue flags have used Shift+S or joined midrace.

Most races are 17.05 to 17.30 minutes long so no driver on the pace would ever get a blue flag.

We give a warning, kick once and then ban for drivers not obeying the blue flag.

We feel the word "UNIMPEDED" is the important one in our rules.

Our rules state:

Blue Flag
One or more competitors are about to lap you. You must hold your course and allow them to pass UNIMPEDED. You must make sure you change speed and leave room to be passed. DO NOT RACE A CAR THAT IS A LAP AHEAD.

Should you pass a slower car and then find you get a blue flag warning you can carry on but MUST NOT IMPEDE THEM IN ANY WAY.

This shouldn't be hard at all for anyone who has raced even few hundred laps online.

If you're flagged, give room. The action you have to take depends on your speed compared to lapping car's speed. If you're almost as fast, you have more time, if you're slower you have less time to make a move. You don't have anything to lose anyway if you're lap behind in a pickup race, so why not move aside? At least I do that.

If you are lapping, make a safe pass, don't lose your nerves. Overtaking a car that's lap behind shouldn't be hard, and shouldn't take half a lap.

IT IS NOT HARD AT ALL!
If you can control your car, you can follow the race etiquette too.
It just depends on your additude.

Quote from Becky Rose :

I'm quite happy to dock a small number of license points for drivers pressuring back markers to get out of the way with blue flag messages which are utterly unecessary, and depending on the incident and level of abuse between drivers i'll go right up to a short ban if a driver derides you publicly for adhering to proper racing blue flag rules.

Since it's a game and there's two types of the blue flag situations I wonder if the rules are the same? 1. Someone started the race with others and is genuinely lapped 2. Someone joins during the race and is getting constant flag.

As you can't join a race during it in real life perhaps real life rules shouldn't apply in case 2? I for one try not to interfere in any way if I join mid race because I know how frustrating it can be to have the race outcome decided by someone who just joined and managed to slow you down just enough during the last lap or so.

Quote from frokki :

Overtaking a car that's lap behind shouldn't be hard, and shouldn't take half a lap.

In the case of a late joiner it can be. I've seen a flagged car actually overtake just about entire field and hitting them while doing it. Talk about ruining a race for the others Maybe it's just me tho, thoughts?

EDIT: all of the above is written with stcc public servers in mind.

P.S. Personally I'd like mid-race join disabled but oh well