Wark, you can see lift force in the garage, in the downforce tab, furthest right.
Cars without aerodynamics work (all but the formulas) don't have the numbers.

Quote from Breizh :

Wark, you can see lift force in the garage, in the downforce tab, furthest right.
Cars without aerodynamics work (all but the formulas) don't have the numbers.

Downforce is negative lift. Those are all negative numbers...

And I'm saying the cars without wings need the numbers.

That's right.. I only remembered there was a negative figure in the "downforce" tab.
Someone like Bob should have a hack to get the lift numbers from LFS, if they exist.

I just checked, and there are two figures, a negative "L", and a positive "D".
Isn't that Lift the negative downforce, and Downforce, the positive downforce?

Well, does the suspension stand up a little going down a straight? Maybe this effect could be amplified in LFStweak if it exists?

And yeah, there are numbers for the wings and undertray which change but body's always 0... you'd think the FZR would be getting a little lift from its body, right?

I don't know that if there's lift, it isn't cancelled or dwarfed by downforce, so that the suspension would show no hint of its presence.
That's just what I think, though.. I mean without knowing how the model works, anything is as likely as almost everything else. Scawen himself said the undertray part of the aero model is pretty simple.

Seeing if those L/D figures are part of the road cars' models is the simplest solution, but I don't have the tools for that.

Well, obviously we know that real road cars have some lift forces and downforces going on, so I guess it's my little two cents improvement suggestion that we get to see those in the forces view--especially if it involves finally effecting them in the sim.

Quote from wark :

Well, obviously we know that real road cars have some lift forces and downforces going on, so I guess it's my little two cents improvement suggestion that we get to see those in the forces view--especially if it involves finally effecting them in the sim.

I doubt there are any cars that have lift. If they did, then you would fly off the track. In the forces, view that is a vector. It shows the net force acting apon that specific area. All of the forces view is a bunch of vectors.

Lift is the same thing as downforce.

Quote from wheel4hummer :

I doubt there are any cars that have lift. If they did, then you would fly off the track. In the forces, view that is a vector. It shows the net force acting apon that specific area. All of the forces view is a bunch of vectors.

Lift is the same thing as downforce.

Road cars should have some lift as that is how those are IRL. Surely they don't fly off even there would be some lift as car has weight, 1200kg you should have rather good wings to create enough lift to get that mass off from ground.

Car just becomes bit lighter at speed, that is all, well bit more unstable too, but that is because less force keeping it planted on road.

Wark, you know that lift is part of LFS' road cars' physics model?
I guess the aero forces figures aren't displayed for cars that couldn't have them modified in their setup. I suppose they'll be shown when we get the undertray aerodynamics modeled.

wheel4hummer, we're saying gross lift, not net.
Lift is negative downforce.. you know that.

Quote from Breizh :

Lift is negative downforce.. you know that.

Well, it is technically not possible to have negative force. Lift is not negative down force. Lift is an opposite force of downforce.

Quote from wark :

And Shotglass, it doesn't always work like that... there's still a deal of art involved in function-over-form design. The Suzuki Hayabusa is supposedly a very aerodynamic bike. IMO It's the ugliest thing on two wheels.

where does my post disagree with that ? all i said was that dysfunctional forms dont look good

Quote from wheel4hummer :

Well, it is technically not possible to have negative force. Lift is not negative down force. Lift is an opposite force of downforce.

its the same
and afaik know there is no lift or in fact any areo force other than drag acting on non winged car in lfs atm

Quote from Shotglass :

its the same

Only if you are travelling back in time. When you go in reverse at 5m/s you are not going -5m/s, you ar going 5m/s in the opposite direction. Opposing forces are not the same as one being negative and one being positive.

Force always has a direction associated with it, it is a vector. Multiply a vector by -1 and witness the vector changing direction!
The absolute value (as in sqrt(x²+y²+z²)) can never be negative (as long as we're not talking about imaginary numbers). But then you're talking about the absolute value of a force. Not the force itself, which is a vector.

Vain

Quote from Shotglass :

where does my post disagree with that ? all i said was that dysfunctional forms dont look good

So you're saying a car is made ugly by a bad design, but not necessarily made attractive by a good design. Notwithstanding, unless you agree that it's made more attractive, your reasoning is fallacious. Still, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Obviously some people think those "rubbish" aero designs like 911s and Lotus 7s look fabulous.

Quote from wheel4hummer :

Well, it is technically not possible to have negative force. Lift is not negative down force. Lift is an opposite force of downforce.

If you're a computer, lift is negative downforce (or vice versa)

I think the early '70s 911s are some of the most attractive bits of design on the roads, but since then it seems the design has been diluted a bit too often, and I definitely wouldn't want a new one. I'd have difficulty choosing between a good vintage 911 and an E-type though, the old ones are lovely.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

I think the early '70s 911s are some of the most attractive bits of design on the roads, but since then it seems the design has been diluted a bit too often, and I definitely wouldn't want a new one. I'd have difficulty choosing between a good vintage 911 and an E-type though, the old ones are lovely.

I'd take one of these http://www.racingsportscars.co ... 74/Spa-1974-05-05-014.jpg over the FZR any day.

Quote from wark :

I'd take one of these http://www.racingsportscars.co ... 74/Spa-1974-05-05-014.jpg over the FZR any day.

Pretty butch looking for sure. I bet it drives like a bag of shit though.

wheel4hummer, were you hit in the head by a 5-pound semantics reference book when you were little or what?

Quote from wheel4hummer :

Only if you are travelling back in time. When you go in reverse at 5m/s you are not going -5m/s, you ar going 5m/s in the opposite direction. Opposing forces are not the same as one being negative and one being positive.

what vain said

Quote from wark :

So you're saying a car is made ugly by a bad design, but not necessarily made attractive by a good design. Notwithstanding, unless you agree that it's made more attractive, your reasoning is fallacious.

what im saying is that a good design needs to be good in the artistic as well as in the technical department ... if if fails on either of these its just a mean of transportation and not all else a car can be

Quote from Breizh :

wheel4hummer, were you hit in the head by a 5-pound semantics reference book when you were little or what?

What does semantics mean?

There is no postive lift in LFS attached to the body. This can only be easily proved 100% on the cars with downforce, where that handy little table shows 0 net lift for the car body. Using the new .bin output system also shows this value to be zero on all cars.

A little spoiler would make it look a bit better and it would make it easier to drive to even up the classes.

+1

Quote from Breizh :

I just checked, and there are two figures, a negative "L", and a positive "D".
Isn't that Lift the negative downforce, and Downforce, the positive downforce?

L is lift, D is drag.

I discovered that while testing "will F1.06 really could drive upside-down at 170km/h?"
Well, it could

I think if you higher front suspiension in FZ5 and run 260km/h the orange bars near wheels should be much smaller if there is lift in LFS.

In Viper Racing air was nicely modelled. There was even crappy plane using aero physics. Had some fun bombarding AI from air, using 'shoot ball at horn'

Quote from pasibrzuch :

L is lift, D is drag.

Oh, duh! no wonder the numbers didn't add up! :dunce: