Quote from tristancliffe :

The brakes on a modern (last 30 years) are fail safe in 99.9% of cases. If you lose engine vaccum then you're brakes will still work without assistance. Yes you have to press harder, but it's not that bad! I wouldn't make a habit of replacing servo assistance with the handbrake - one day it'll catch you out!!! And the few seconds you saved with the engine off wouldn't have made any difference to the engine temps or damage anyway - if you noticed by looking at the gauge then you've got a bit of safety margin, and if you noticed because steam obscured your vision then a bit more warping doesn't make much difference. Do be careful - cars can be very dangerous, and just making rash decisions like you did might not always work out for you.

It wasn't a rash decision. If you want the whole story, here's what happened. I was driving on the highway on a relatively foggy day. Car was riding fine - and was on cruise control. Had I been off cruise control, I guess I might have noticed that the engine was losing power (hilly terrain) but I didn't. I had the music on and was enjoying myself at the time. Suddenly I noticed that the car seemed to be getting cold, and I felt the air vents and noticed that the heat (it was winter) wasn't hot. I glanced at the temperature gauge and saw that the needle was pinned. I had no idea how long it had been like that, and I decided right then and there to shut it off. It was not a rash decision. It was a decision done to hopefully keep the engine from seizing, or any damage from occurring if any hadn't yet been done. That's when I pulled into the exit lane which I was next to at the time. Yanked the handbrake, put on the hazards and stepped on the brake as hard as possible.

Turned out the head-gasket had blown. No damage, amazingly was done to the engine (other than a temp sensor which died a month later after it was repaired.) I know it's very unlikely, but for all I know - keeping the engine running for 10 extra seconds might have warped/cracked the cylinder heads or done other damage.

As for the steam. I looked in my mirror when I pulled into the shoulder, and only now that I knew what was wrong, did I notice the trail of steam through the fog.

Sounds like a rash decision to me - one that was made in the heat of the moment with little regard for what was clever or sensible.

If you'd yanked on the handbrake, heaved on the steering, jumped on the brakes, locked up the rears, spun across two lanes and killed a family? Hint: Never apply the handbrake in that situation - you were given a middle pedal for slowing down, and the liklihood of that EVER failing completely is thousands, if not millions, to one.

tristan, are you, yourself, incapable of partially, gently applying a handbrake. I think you are not, and that must be the basis of your confusion. Applying the hand brake does not equal locking the rear tires...

After cutting an engine off, the first time you hit the brakes, you're not going to have much stopping power, you will, for the most part, need to pump the brakes in most modern cars because you would have lost power brakes at that point...

I had a master cylinder break (literally split in two...was caused by a bad mold job...bubbles in the walls of the master cylinder.) When that happens, you lose ALL brakes unless the car has a completly redundant system, which most dont. I stopped the car perfectly safetly and controlled, never once locking the rears up, using nothing but the ebrake (a pedal-type in this case...meaning i had to reach under the dash and hold the brake release while doing it...)

And millions to 1, thats not very good odds, really... Hundreds of millions of people on the roads at any given time in the world... Failures happen all the time... brake failures happen all the time... its like any other mechanical system, every joint, seal, and moving part is a point of potential failure. Throw in other things like air in the brake lines from bad installs, slow fluid leaks...etc, you end up with a not-so-improbable situation.

Read my posts - I am aware handbrakes can be partially applied. But in an emergency (an EMERGENCY, where stopping RIGHT NOW IS CRITICAL) you would not use the handbrake fully, and THEREFORE CANNOT BE CALLED AN E-BRAKE.

I'm all for discussions. Stang has proved quite good in the discussion. But don't come in here with some moronic attitude like that if you can't be bothered to read the whole fecking thread.

Not good odds? Most cars will rot out before both circuits in the brake system begin to fail. Maybe I was lenient with the odds. You have a one-hundred million to one chance of both circuits failing in your car. Doesn't mean it won't happen - it happened to you (probably using aftermarket parts), but I think we can be certain that nearly everyone on this forum will never have total brake failure.

As for losing servo assistance (what fools call Power Brakes), you don't need to pump at all - that's when you are trying to compress gas in the system. You just press a bit harder. Not much, maybe twice as hard, which any fool can do in an emergency. I can lock up my wheels without even trying in any unservoed car I've driven (some of which were designed for servos, but had servo failure of one sort of another).

Quote from tristancliffe :

Sounds like a rash decision to me - one that was made in the heat of the moment with little regard for what was clever or sensible.

If you'd yanked on the handbrake, heaved on the steering, jumped on the brakes, locked up the rears, spun across two lanes and killed a family? Hint: Never apply the handbrake in that situation - you were given a middle pedal for slowing down, and the liklihood of that EVER failing completely is thousands, if not millions, to one.

Tristan - First off, JUMPING on the brakes with the engine shut off does in no way lead to HEAVY, DANGEROUS braking. Second, I'm not an idiot, and about to YANK the handbrake, lock the tires and cause a 7-car pileup. I DID yank the handbrake, knowing full well that the handbrake on my car is not at all powerful enough to lock the tires, or even come close to that (I think it might have been done on purpose, since it's an all-wheel-drive car.) Third, when I said I HEAVED the steering wheel over, you seem to immediately picture me swerving across 5 lanes, tires screeching, etc. That was not the case. I used the word HEAVED to identify that I had lost power steering and therefor needed to use more force than usually to take the exit at a normal speed. The whole maneuver was very safe and well within the limits of my abilities and the car's.

And yes, I am enjoying this discussion Your turn Tristan :P

Oh for fecks sake. Forget about YOU. Forget about ME. This is a discussion about whether handbrakes are called e-brakes (they're not), and whether the e stands for emergency.

If it did stand for emergency then it would be impossible by design to lock your rear wheels with a handbrake, because when people (not specific people, just people in general) face an emergency they panic. And when they panic the pull wildly at things. To call the handbrake an e-brake is basically saying "it's okay to lock your wheels by over application of a handbrake and risk killing people in an emergency". There are many many safer ways of saving the situation without even thinking of using the handbrake in such a way.

"An emergency brake is a separate brake system in a vehicle for use in case of failure of the regular (hydraulic or air) brakes and commonly used as a parking brake in automobiles. In automobiles, it is also called hand brake. Many people shorten emergency and call the devices e-brakes."

Stop being a dick, really. They are Called Emergency Brakes, shortened to e-brakes, sometimes Hand Brakes or Parking Brakes.

You're logic is absurd...considering that most people, if they don't have ABS, do the lock up their tires in an emergency anyways.

You are wrong. Period. You're trying to argue semantics because you don't like the facts, but you don't change them.

If it was designed as "emergency" brake (which it is not), then it would act on the front wheels or all wheels, since the last thing you want to do in an emergency is lock your rear wheels. Yes you can operate the handbrake without locking the rear wheels, but usually an emergency is coupled with shock and NOT having time to think things through, so a rear wheel brake is the least desirable fallback brake to have if the situation arises. The rear wheels also have the worst braking potential on the car, why you'd want to use them for emergencies is beyond me.

The point is, handbrakes are designed to stop the car rolling away on an incline, that and nothing else. You can use them in an emergency, but they are not designed for it.

Ok, without doing any research, here's what I think.

I honestly don't know whether the brake is called the handbrake or the emergency brake, but what I do know is that they are designed to be used in both cases. I dislike your argument that if it was designed as as an emergancy brake, it wouldn't lock the rear wheels, but the fact remains that you can lock all FOUR wheels of your car with the normal brakes...

Also, to be used as a handbrake on a steep incline, it NEEDS to be powerful. So that's why. I think they just assume that people are not going to be morons and yank the brake. Even more - they assume that their brake systems won't totally fail and so that will rarely be necessary.

Quote from AndroidXP :

If it was designed as "emergency" brake (which it is not), then it would act on the front wheels or all wheels, since the last thing you want to do in an emergency is lock your rear wheels. Yes you can operate the handbrake without locking the rear wheels, but usually an emergency is coupled with shock and NOT having time to think things through, so a rear wheel brake is the least desirable fallback brake to have if the situation arises. The rear wheels also have the worst braking potential on the car, why you'd want to use them for emergencies is beyond me.

The point is, handbrakes are designed to stop the car rolling away on an incline, that and nothing else. You can use them in an emergency, but they are not designed for it.

Well, I know it is used in emergency situations and that doesn't only mean when you lose your normal brakes. Both names are acceptable, although e-brake (in my general experience) was saved for the foot brake version of it, where as hand brake was used by your hand - go figure. It is sometimes safer - if the driver knows what they are doing, to lock the brakes up in the rear tires. At least in my winter experience has been saved twice already since I learned how to safely use the power of the e-brake/handbrake or whatever you guys want to keep calling it.

I have used it in the case of a different emergency since I have a front-wheel drive car and needed to induce oversteer on the snow so that it allowed me to make a turn that I was understeering in severely. Due to the induced oversteer the car balanced around the corner and the front wheels were able to make it to dry pavement and allow everything to be fine. I would call that emergency use of the brake and I wouldn't have been able to use the normal brake cause that would have locked the front and rear tires rather than just the rear. I would also say I had a completely clear head while going through the ordeal and actually anytime I had been sliding around on the road my head is totally clear and I remain completely calm. Letting shock come over yourself is very easy to do, but its not going to do you any good, only once did I panic and hit the wrong controls, and that was my first experience sliding. The funny thing was, I panicked but immediately calmed myself down during that time, though the damage of me panicking had been done since I was spinning around and around into the snowbank. (While in panic mode I tapped the brakes for 0.1 seconds and thats what threw me into the spin). Since then I haven't panicked in my car and I think thats whats kept my car on the road in some pretty bad conditions, its funny cause I actually enjoy driving in the snow (its just the other drivers that scare me, as I don't know how they handle the snow.)

Quote from dropin_biking :

No, Manual shift (stick, standard, whatev) need a handbrake to stay parked, because they are parked in netruel, and will roll if wheels aren't locked. Automatic vehicles have them too, but arn't used as often, due to the fact that once the car is in park the tires cannot move.
~Bryan~

PS... I was just keeping things simple for the O/P so he/she would understand what an E-Brake is

Coming back on the balls this dude has the balls to show his balls..ye he has balls

http://i11.photobucket.com/alb ... 85/marcusjspell/balls.jpg

Stang, does your handbrake on the outback lock all 4 wheels? I have the same car and was wondering if it was just connected to the rear wheels as it is AWD. I haven't tested it but I always figured it only locked the rear wheels as it would be too complicated to include all four wheels. But then, does the center differential disengage when the handbrake is pulled?

Quote from Dennisjr13 :

Stang, does your handbrake on the outback lock all 4 wheels? I have the same car and was wondering if it was just connected to the rear wheels as it is AWD. I haven't tested it but I always figured it only locked the rear wheels as it would be too complicated to include all four wheels. Does the center differential disengage when the handbrake is pulled?

Honestly - I'm in the same boat as you. I have no idea. What I always figured was that it went to the rear wheels, and that if you engage it while you're driving, it simply lacks the power to lock the wheels. It's up on jacks in the garage now, so after I finish my bagel with lox and cream cheese, I'll go take a quick peek and see if I can figure it out. It's always squeaked a little and it SOUNDS like it only goes to the rear.

EDIT: wOOt! 1,000 POSTS!

Quote from Stang70Fastback :

It's always squeaked a little and it SOUNDS like it only goes to the rear.

EDIT: wOOt! 1,000 POSTS!

Even if it is directly connected to the rear, wouldn't it be indirectly connected to the front as well through the drive train?

Quote from Dennisjr13 :

Even if it is directly connected to the rear, wouldn't it be indirectly connected to the front as well through the drive train?

Yeah. That's I think partly why it lacks the power to lock the wheels while driving. The front tires on the ground simply overpower the brakes.

Quote from Bob Smith :

Continuing the off-topic ness: - I win?

XD looks like your ball has bad case of the old fire crotch

Quote from rjm1982 :

After cutting an engine off, the first time you hit the brakes, you're not going to have much stopping power, you will, for the most part, need to pump the brakes in most modern cars because you would have lost power brakes at that point...

rubbish you might want to read up on how servos work

im pretty sure they are called e-brakes. When I apply the parking brake in my BMW, a light like this come on (E) which in the manual says stands for emergency brake. It is the automobile manufacturers that come up with the technical terms. If they want to call it and emergency brake, than thats what it is, regardless of what its actually used for.

Once, my friend had total brake failure. Pedal in the floor - zero brakes. It was emergency situation. He used emergency handbrake and stopped the car without mad spinning or hitting any tree.

His brothers' brakes were fading strongly, so he helped himself with emergency handbrake to drive safely through rush-hour stop-go.

I had servo failure and it wasn't so easy to brake. It was ver very bad (and this is normal because new cars are made to work with servo, not without. Only in old cars, witch are 700kg lighter than new cars, you would brake with broken servo. Also notice that servo failure gave me an extra mechanical discomfort when braking, not only power-loose!) . Later it was fixed but not very well, and I noticed it 3 months later when I hit a drunk man, and police was asking me why only one wheel was locked (no ABS). And guess what? Surprisingly I didn't pull handbrake in panic. I just hit the brake to the floor in panic.


It seems like Tristan couldn't manage to operate handbrake to use it in snowy conditions or do a handbrake turn. Only spinning in panic and fell of the clif to the sea or something... Maybe that's why he turned to formula track racing (with all this girly slicks and wings and silly wide perfect safe track that won't allow to crash or loose control, even if you want to), not to real man motorsport: rally, where there is need to use handbrake to be faster.

You, guys from US must know, that in the first place is God Tristan, then God with Jesus and Maria, later of course Chuck Norris and then: 7 billions of fools; where fools on the North America continent are twice fools. Oh there are also a few girls on the track behind Tristan, or on streets in hatchbacks, FWD cars, and all vehicles with ABS, ESP and below 500bhp. All are girls.

Quote from pasibrzuch :

http://www.lfsforum.net/C:%5CDocuments%20and%20Settings%5CLMS%5CPulpit%5Cspecial%20olympics2.JPG

haha
youve just lowered the rest of your post to totally not worth reading

Quote from Shotglass :

haha
youve just lowered the rest of your post to totally not worth reading

You aren't going to read his post about hand brakes in a hand brake thread because he doesn't know how to post a picture on the forum, which has nothing to do with car knowledge?

Quote from pasibrzuch :

It seems like Tristan couldn't manage to operate handbrake to use it in snowy conditions or do a handbrake turn. Only spinning in panic and fell of the clif to the sea or something... Maybe that's why he turned to formula track racing (with all this girly slicks and wings and silly wide perfect safe track that won't allow to crash or loose control, even if you want to), not to real man motorsport: rally, where there is need to use handbrake to be faster.

You, guys from US must know, that in the first place is God Tristan, then God with Jesus and Maria, later of course Chuck Norris and then: 7 billions of fools; where fools on the North America continent are twice fools. Oh there are also a few girls on the track behind Tristan, or on streets in hatchbacks, FWD cars, and all vehicles with ABS, ESP and below 500bhp. All are girls.

I wonder why stupid people like you are allowed out of your room? Where have I stated that I can't use a handbrake? I think you'll find I'm stating that 'the public at large' can't be trusted to use a handbrake in emergency situation, and as such it should not (unless electronically modulated like in the aforementioned german box of crap (Audi)) be referred to as an e-brake. This forum, and most car forums, are probably full of people who have successfully managed to slow a car in such a case, but that doesn't mean that everyone can or would. Hell, I bet most people wouldn't think of using the handbrake at all, let alone pump pedals etc.

Whilst I have no need of a handbrake to go fast, do be aware that the 'rules' of driving change on loose surfaces. Whilst modern computerised girly WRC doesn't interest me, I've done a rally course thingy, and I enjoy off-roading at speed when I can. But anyone can experience that, not everyone can drive a slicks and wings car.

Also, regarding your little childish spat at the end of your post, I have never claimed to either be great at driving, nor have I claimed that my opinions on matters are fact. I don't like FWD as they are dynamically flawed and solely designed for shopping. I do like more cars with less than 500hp than with more, but not when they have TC. Please get your facts straights if you want to look a bit clever.
The fact I don't believe bedtime stories about God or Jesus means that bit wasn't very effective, and you've stated a fact that 7 billion Americans (not just North) are stupid.

Good day to you. I look forward to your reports of your racing experi... oh wait, you're jealous.

Quote from tristancliffe :

german box of crap (Audi)

Yes! Another "Tristan opinion" with which to carry out an argument about! Who shall go first?

Based on owning and driving several modern Audis, from A3 Sports a few years back, to a recentish A4 Quattro. All over servoed. All uncomfy (Germans can't do comfy seats). All with poor driving positions. And few that are attractive, although I did quite like to look of the A3 Sport.