Quote from DragonCommando :

Thats why no road racing car has a digital unless you talk about those track ricers. (most of them don't even get digitals)
Just look at Nascar and GP1, neither use Digitals as standard equipment
The only reason F1 uses digital is because there is no dash, everything is on the steering wheel.

If you're familiar with the car you just need a tach. Or even just your ears. But that's on the road. The only reason you really need a speedo is the police--otherwise, who cares? On the track, average speed (lap times) are good enough. But even corner to corner, there's no way your revs won't be an accurate enough indication of speed. Remember: KMH and MPH are arbitrary! If in some sport someone really needs the exact speed for some setup optimisation or what have you, that will be readily available to him via telemetry and/or speed traps. Where that information is not available, it can't be that big of a deal.

P.S. I was not aware real F1 cars had speedometers . . . do they indeed?

In LFS, I always determine how fast to go into a corner by the gear I am in. It seems to work for all setups give or take one gear.

Quote from XCNuse :

screw racing lol it makes sense in everyday driving..

Well, I donno about Georgia, but in California you're gonna need to know precisely how fast you're going on the freeway in the event of pig intrusion, six o'clock. Are you really gonna know whether you were going 72 or 74 at a glance with an analogue? Nopers, broseph.

(also, you'd better be prepared to know the differences between indicated speeds and real speeds at different values)

Quote from wark :

Well, I donno about Georgia, but in California you're gonna need to know precisely how fast you're going on the freeway in the event of pig intrusion, six o'clock. Are you really gonna know whether you were going 72 or 74 at a glance with an analogue? Nopers, broseph.

(also, you'd better be prepared to know the differences between indicated speeds and real speeds at different values)

My dad and me got pulled over for going 48mph in a 35mph zone, in the rain, without the lights on. And, the cop didn't give us a ticket!

Quote from wheel4hummer :

My dad and me got pulled over for going 48mph in a 35mph zone, in the rain, without the lights on. And, the cop didn't give us a ticket!

Two words: gas chamber!

I use a combination of needle positions and engine sound to determine my speed and the correct gear for a corner. However sometimes it's good to just use the speedo and look at the last position it was in and try to make it through the corner with the needle a little higher next time. (for better lap times)


@ wark:

F1 cars have a digital speed reading on the wheel mounted display, its just there for cornering speed checks during practice or something, a good F1 driver probably doesn't even look at it very often. But remember F1 has alot of gears (compared to a road car), and most of the low ones are set per-corner, so that means that they just have to be in the right gear.
On a road car you might come into a corner differently (better or not) and you might want an idea of your general speed.
On the highway you have time to read a number, on a race track all you need and should take the time for is usualy a general idea of how fast you are going.

No matter how good you are, you always need some form of general speed display at one point or another.

Quote from wark :

Well, I donno about Georgia, but in California you're gonna need to know precisely how fast you're going on the freeway in the event of pig intrusion, six o'clock. Are you really gonna know whether you were going 72 or 74 at a glance with an analogue? Nopers, broseph.

(also, you'd better be prepared to know the differences between indicated speeds and real speeds at different values)

72 and 74 you can't even determine from even with a digital speedo, even slight things that aren't.. normal can change your speed, looking at a speedo on any car is not very likely to give you the true speed you're actually going in all cases

plus.. even if you do get pulled over for going however fast, you can still ask the cop if they have your speed on the gun, and if they dont they can't give you a ticket

@wheel4hummer, thats nothing, a friend of mine (well.. not really, he just goes to school with me) got his license taken away (sucks but.. get this) was caught in a neighborhood zone (25 mph) through a red light, going 120+ mph
... dumb?... beyond that.. i still dont get how he got a Passat to go that fast..

Quote from DragonCommando :

On a road car you might come into a corner differently (better or not) and you might want an idea of your general speed.

Meh. Only because you're used to using it as a crutch. Or you want to brag about how fast you went through some notorious twisty. You should be able to obtain a wee bit more than "an idea" by other means.

The bottom line is speedometers are read out of either fear or curiosity.

@ wark

I can almost garantee that GP1 drivers look at there speedo more often than you would belive.

My dad used to race, He told me that a digital is absolutly usless for road racing, its analog or forget it.

A way to rotate the redline to 1 o'clock would help, too.

Quote from DragonCommando :

@ wark

I can almost garantee that GP1 drivers look at there speedo more often than you would belive.

My dad used to race, He told me that a digital is absolutly usless for road racing, its analog or forget it.

oh yea my dad.. same way, he used to race F1 and all sorts of things, and they didn't even need one really except for pitting if there was a pit speed limit, they just needed the one tach which was tilted so your peak RPM would have the needle pointing straight up (like in GPL for those that never knew that)

Quote from DragonCommando :

@ wark

I can almost garantee that GP1 drivers look at there speedo more often than you would belive.

My dad used to race, He told me that a digital is absolutly usless for road racing, its analog or forget it.

I bet digital speedos were pretty slow in your pappy's day. If GP1 drivers look at their speedos a lot, are you saying that makes them somehow good? Call me crazy, but I would think the ones who watched the road with confidence did better.

Quote from XCNuse :

72 and 74 you can't even determine from even with a digital speedo, even slight things that aren't.. normal can change your speed, looking at a speedo on any car is not very likely to give you the true speed you're actually going in all cases

plus.. even if you do get pulled over for going however fast, you can still ask the cop if they have your speed on the gun, and if they dont they can't give you a ticket

@wheel4hummer, thats nothing, a friend of mine (well.. not really, he just goes to school with me) got his license taken away (sucks but.. get this) was caught in a neighborhood zone (25 mph) through a red light, going 120+ mph
... dumb?... beyond that.. i still dont get how he got a Passat to go that fast..

Probably the Passat was doing 100 MPH teh cop added teh rest on like they always do

all i can say to that - i love analog speedos, love to watch the needle go up and up, gives me the feeling of beeing faster than it actually is.
but...as already stated numbers are hard to read, so i use digital speedo, which doesnt give me such a nice feeling but i can drive more accurate
would really like to see any kind of improvement in that section.

Quote from Breizh :

A way to rotate the redline to 1 o'clock would help, too.

Not the redline, as that's a useless bit of information for a racecar driver, but to have the peak optimum revs vertically would be nice (then you don't need a shift light unless you are an absolute numpty; just change gear when the needle points upwards)

Quote from tristancliffe :

Not the redline, as that's a useless bit of information for a racecar driver, but to have the peak optimum revs vertically would be nice (then you don't need a shift light unless you are an absolute numpty; just change gear when the needle points upwards)

Except shifting at peak power is short-shifting. (I knew you knew)

If you shift correctly with the XRT, you can shift at 6k and still get the same speed out of it. Last time I checked I got a higher speed at the end of the back straight by shifting at 6k. This is probably due to the Torque dropping at or around that area even though the shift light comes on at 7k

I would love to be able to customize the tach and speedo in LFS, I just don't know which .DDS file controlls the alpha and color for it.

@wark

I never said they watched the Speedo in GP1, I said they use an analog one so they can take a glance at it when they have to. Its alot easier to take a glance and see your speed with an analog than a digital because all you need to know is where the needle is. If you know the car the needle position gives you the speed anyway.

I race with virtual dials turned off, I just glance at the needle and I know how fast I'm going. However, I CAN read the numbers if I have to, because I run at a high resolution.

Quote from wark :

Except shifting at peak power is short-shifting. (I knew you knew)

I said have the optimum shoft point facing upwards, not peak power

Quote from DragonCommando :

If you shift correctly with the XRT, you can shift at 6k and still get the same speed out of it. Last time I checked I got a higher speed at the end of the back straight by shifting at 6k. This is probably due to the Torque dropping at or around that area even though the shift light comes on at 7k

Shows you don't really have a clue what you're talking about!

Quote from tristancliffe :

I said have the optimum shoft point facing upwards, not peak power

In that case, +1 for vertical... peak... optimum...... revs.

BUT OCIFFER--I WERE RUNNING AT VERTICAL PEAK OPTIMUM SPEED! :drunk:

The torque of an engine doesn't peak at peak RPM so you don't have to set your gears to shift at red line. I'v adjusted my gearing so I shift at 6k and I still hit the same top speed that I do when it shifted at 7k

You'll notice that the shift light doesn't always come on at red line, it comes on when the sim thinks its a good time to shift. I had mine coming on at 8k once.

I do know what I'm talking about so please don't make comments like that.

Well, I wouldn't get Tristan into this conversation if I was you. Just trust me

Also, one point that I personally think is in favour if analog speedo is that it gives me a good idea of how much wheelspin is going on, and how the differential is behaving in corners - at least now that it properly reads wheel speed in LFS like it should. Even more helpful trying to launch a FWD (kind of a paradox I know :razz

As I'm sure is being typed this very moment, LFS's unrealistic shift light comes on when it knows that more torque at the wheels (big hint for the previous posts) is greater in the next gear. If you're in a corner, it knows that you can't put more torque down without spinning a wheel so it'll wait to light up until the conditions are right.

With regard to your shifting, all that matters is optimizing the ... torque (mumble mumble)... at the wheels, taking gearing & the engine's torque (mumble mumble) curve into account. More engine torque does not equate to more wheel torque, unless you only have one gear. (mumbles)

I will reluctantly refrain from nattering about work, time, force, distance and so forth. I won't even mention that the definition of power is "the ability to do work", or that 1HP = 33,000 ft lbs per minute. I won't mention those things!

Everything you just said is what I was trying to say.

The shift light comes on if the next gear provides more torque, if you adjust your gears so that the shift point is closer to the point at which torque from the engine starts to realy fall off, then you get the most power out of the engine and the most possible power going to the rear wheels.

From what I can see, the torque from the XRT's engine starts to drop off around 6k rpm, so going up to 7k you are just riding the fall off. (which isn't always a bad thing, but I seem to get more speed out of the car if I set up to shift closer to 6k than 7k)

I use GRC to do the calculations and from what I can see, top speed increases if you set it to shift closer to 6k.

If anyone can get a V-max speed of higher than 233km/h I'd love to see the ratios for it and try it out to see the shift points.

on a final note: the shift light, as far as I can remember, Does come on at 6k for me. But I'm not on my main computer to check right now.

I've never attempted to create the torque curve on the XRT. However, the gearing advantage of staying in the lower gear would likely be greater than shifting earlier (to stay in the engine's higher output area), as would using the lowest ratios you can get away with in general. Pretty hard to say without seeing the curve though.

The curves are shown on the main page of LFS Gear Ratio Calculator, then on the Gearing page it shows wheel torque VS wheel RPM.

The blue curve on the main screen is the torque curve.

Ah, I've never tried GRC yet (Sorry Bob, don't ban me :razz. I'll have to have a peek.

edit: Real Men (tm) don't need a GRC