The above post just OWNED!!! you.
The above post just OWNED!!! you.
why always the "american vs. european cars" fight?
both are good, american cars are great in straight lines and the european cars have better handling.
and japanese cars are just toys
both are good, american cars are great in straight lines and the european cars have better handling.
and japanese cars are just toys
American cars own the top two fastest lap times at Nordschleife... And you can hear the viper hitting his rev limiter like crazy, he could've gone faster..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoxlpZjotMI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoxlpZjotMI
Err... no, the Radical SR8 holds the road car lap record and Stefan Bellof holds the outright lap record in a German car.
Also a lot of 'sporty' American cars have one hell of a lot of European input.
The Ford GT is basically a giant Elise, most of it was desinged by by Lotus.
We love to fight and disagree with eachother us Europeans and Yanks, but when we work together, amazing cars result.
E.g AC Cobra, Ford GT, Pantera (although De Tomaso was Argentinian originally), the list goes on forever.
The Ford GT is basically a giant Elise, most of it was desinged by by Lotus.
We love to fight and disagree with eachother us Europeans and Yanks, but when we work together, amazing cars result.
E.g AC Cobra, Ford GT, Pantera (although De Tomaso was Argentinian originally), the list goes on forever.
No.
Nah, it was the clonky gearbox that was limiting his pace. With that Viper you need triple clutching and oil change every time you upshift.
Anyways, the 'ring is probably not the best track for measung a car's capabilities simply because the track is so fast. It's a horsepower track where you go long times in straight line
? Huh? Just because there are two decent straits it's a HP track? It's one of the most complex and challenging tracks in the world with over 70 turns (can't be asked to look for exact figure) If it's a HP then why isn't the Koenigsegg number 1 on the list, afterall it has the highest HP and one of the best HP/weight ratios. To discredit both cars because they have high HP... why? Why isn't the DBR9S on there? It has almost the same HP?
LOL triple clutching on a viper, you have not driven one then =)
Where would you look at then? Nobody really thinks that stats really tell what the car is capabable of, then when they do goto a track people say well, you can't use that track because it has two long straits
Isn't speed part of performance? And sure two decent straits that go up and down with the terrain, but inbetween those are 70plus corners ranging from hairpins to fast corners. I don't understand how you can say that the ring doesn't give a good indication of performance.The Viper has and always had a great suspension from day one, thanks to McLaren who who helped design it and continue to help Dodge with it IIRC. It won virtually every GT1 race it entered in since what 98 until Dodge pulled the funding for the cars in 01. It took porshe until this year to finally pass it in the record books for all time wins. And the Viper hasn't raced in GT1 for nearly 7 years. Sure it had a big lump in the front, sure it was a beast to drive, but you would find throttle modulation a bit hard too when you are trying to control 600ft/lbs of torque with only your right foot =)
The vette also has a great suspension after years of perfecting it in their racecars, which are still winning races and championships over their competition. These two cars can 'handle' and will easily keep up with anything the European manufacturers can produce.
You could say that because of McLarens influence on the Viper that it's not really an American car and would you be wrong? I don't know, you would have to ask the SRT engineering crew how much they had help with the latest Viper. It wasn't until the Viper came out that the Vette really moved on making great suspension changes. They were using the traversal leaf then, but it was nothing like it is today.
Here is a list of the fastest times for the ring http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordschleife_fastest_lap_times Hehe my cars big brother is number 1 =) The radical is only road legal in the UK and is not considered a production vehicle, hence it's not on the list =)
It is a fast track. Average speed with an F1 car with a fast lap (theoritical estimate) is 237km/h (source). Suzuka is 229 (source), Hungary is 200 (source) and Monza is 257 (source). These are all very fast F1 tracks and the 'ring certainly isn't the slowest of the bunch. For reference, Monaco is under 160 (source). (I calculated those numbers by hand using the lap records times and track lengths shown on wiki pages). You also need to remember that most of those lap records are all made in 2005 with 3 litre engines and the 'ring estimate is for the 2.4-litre f1 car).
The average speed goes hand in hand with the power, on slower tracks you obviously are less hindered by not having much power while on faster tracks the gains from more power are greater. As for why certain car isn't on top of the list and some other isn't, I have no clue
Not saying the 'vette or viper aren't great cars and all that, they just have lots of power* which is essential for a quick lap time around the ring.
*high power/weight/drag-ratio
The average speed goes hand in hand with the power, on slower tracks you obviously are less hindered by not having much power while on faster tracks the gains from more power are greater. As for why certain car isn't on top of the list and some other isn't, I have no clue
Not saying the 'vette or viper aren't great cars and all that, they just have lots of power* which is essential for a quick lap time around the ring.
*high power/weight/drag-ratio
The 'ring is a power track, not only does it have long straights but blindingly fast sections that can be taken very quickly in a capable car.
Then if it is, why isn't the koenniggg on the top of the list?
Baaaaccckkk onnn toppiccc. 
Yeah I like the Top end of Drag racing, because all that power they have out of those engines is not entirely tamed and boring like most other forms of motorsport. When you watch them go you can almost feel the acceleration, as if the cars are tied to elastic bands and are being catapaulted. You don't see that in many other internal combustion engined cars (although the Porsche 917/30 gets close. )
Yeah I like the Top end of Drag racing, because all that power they have out of those engines is not entirely tamed and boring like most other forms of motorsport. When you watch them go you can almost feel the acceleration, as if the cars are tied to elastic bands and are being catapaulted. You don't see that in many other internal combustion engined cars (although the Porsche 917/30 gets close.
)Hehe I am good at going OT...
It's fun for a day out if your driving, but I don't think I could sit and watch it all day, maybe the top fuelers for a while...
It's fun for a day out if your driving, but I don't think I could sit and watch it all day, maybe the top fuelers for a while...
It's hardly slow (Evo had it round in 7.33) and as I said the 'ring is a power track, that Viper has a lot more power than all the other serious sports cars and most supercars. The supercars are not aimed at going round a circuit quickly, although they may be capable they all have full interiors (with the possible exception of the MC12), weigh a lot and are aimed at being driveable on the road, making a nice noise and generally being idiot proof. The Pagini and MC12 both lapped in 7.24 (Evo Nov 08), which is impressive given they were standard road cars. It is hardly news that even the most humble car with a few relevant modifications, well setup and well driven can leave Supercars standing anywhere other than the straights, and with 600bhp they shouldn't have too much difficulty keeping up.
So it is agreed then that the Vette and Viper can actually 'handle' and are capable cars that can easily keep up with any 'supercar'. Which is what the disagreement started as =)
I agree that even a fiesta can easily be turned into a monster to go against anything, but the vette and Viper are Factory vehicles that outperform even the fastest 'supercars' on a track. I agree that all the other cars under 8 minutes are very capable cars and perform very well, no disagreement there =) But I was simply trying to point out that the Viper and Vette do 'handle' and should not be branded as cars that cannot 'handle' when they get onto a track and are faster on a track where HP is supposed to mean so much yet these cars with more HP
Where would you grab a comparision from to show that the Vette and Viper does or does not handle? In the production classes where the Vette and Viper race they are winning races over the other classes. Their 'stats' are equivelent to any other factory performance vehicle on the market. Yet they are branded as vehicles that cannot handle? I am not saying that European cars do not drive or corner as well as these cars, I am saying they deserve to be shown as vehicles that do indeed perform well both in acceleration but handling as well. To say otherwise is simply untrue and innaccurate and people who think that they are not capable are falling prey to the fallacy that anything from America cannot handle, it's untrue.
Even though these cars have more power than some of the European cars, I think you will find that the Power to weight ratios are not that much different than each other, nor is any of the other performance stats. So much effort and engineering get put into every one of these cars that they all have been placed onto our current limitations in vehicle handling.
I agree that even a fiesta can easily be turned into a monster to go against anything, but the vette and Viper are Factory vehicles that outperform even the fastest 'supercars' on a track. I agree that all the other cars under 8 minutes are very capable cars and perform very well, no disagreement there =) But I was simply trying to point out that the Viper and Vette do 'handle' and should not be branded as cars that cannot 'handle' when they get onto a track and are faster on a track where HP is supposed to mean so much yet these cars with more HP
Where would you grab a comparision from to show that the Vette and Viper does or does not handle? In the production classes where the Vette and Viper race they are winning races over the other classes. Their 'stats' are equivelent to any other factory performance vehicle on the market. Yet they are branded as vehicles that cannot handle? I am not saying that European cars do not drive or corner as well as these cars, I am saying they deserve to be shown as vehicles that do indeed perform well both in acceleration but handling as well. To say otherwise is simply untrue and innaccurate and people who think that they are not capable are falling prey to the fallacy that anything from America cannot handle, it's untrue.
Even though these cars have more power than some of the European cars, I think you will find that the Power to weight ratios are not that much different than each other, nor is any of the other performance stats. So much effort and engineering get put into every one of these cars that they all have been placed onto our current limitations in vehicle handling.
There's no doubt that both the Viper ACR and Corvette ZR1 are very capable cars, apart from being a bit heavy they tick all the boxes and certainly do handle. Round a power track like the 'ring they are at home and relatively underpowered conventional track choices, Caterhams, 911 GT3s, (very) production hot hatches and Group N ish saloons all get left behind because they spend big chunks of the track flat out trying to keep up. Put them on a tigther less power demanding track and the physical size of the American cars will hinder them and they will struggle to keep up with the others. In comparision to the hot versions a standard Viper or Vette would be hopeless and soft and a lot slower round the 'ring (even if statistically there is hardly any difference), just like the supercars.
As soon as you allow free shock absorbers, suspension modifications and a rollcage, not to mention completely removing the weight difference between the cars by running to a standard weight the differences in the production cars become irrelevant, with the exception of the engine. If you start off with 600bhp standard you've got a slight advantage
Hehe just a wee bit =) On a smaller course they would lose their advantage but still it would be one great race to watch =)
True the ACR is above the standard Viper. Springrates and damper rates are higher with the option to adjust the rollbars, camber, toe, dampening (seperatly IIRC) but still =) I wish my SRT-4 ACR had 1/2 the adjustments you can do in the SRT-10 ACR.
There is a cost factor involved yeah if you get a crate engine from a manufacturer that runs near or at the amount of HP allowed thats a huge cost savings which can be spent in other parts of the car.
I wouldn't say either of these cars are exceptionally heavy. I thought the DBR9 was about the same?
Back to drag racing, anyone going to be running anything at Santapod or Stratford next year? I have a bit of extra cash coming in now and could probably go out and run 1 day. Want to see what my new 3" TBE will give me. Run 13.7's @ 101 in factory trim, thinking it would put me in the 6's @ 102-103.
Want to get back onto a track, but don't like the idea of warping my rotors again. I tried to do hard braking and then let off to prevent dragging when I was on silverstone. But I don't think it helped...
True the ACR is above the standard Viper. Springrates and damper rates are higher with the option to adjust the rollbars, camber, toe, dampening (seperatly IIRC) but still =) I wish my SRT-4 ACR had 1/2 the adjustments you can do in the SRT-10 ACR.
There is a cost factor involved yeah if you get a crate engine from a manufacturer that runs near or at the amount of HP allowed thats a huge cost savings which can be spent in other parts of the car.
I wouldn't say either of these cars are exceptionally heavy. I thought the DBR9 was about the same?
Back to drag racing, anyone going to be running anything at Santapod or Stratford next year? I have a bit of extra cash coming in now and could probably go out and run 1 day. Want to see what my new 3" TBE will give me. Run 13.7's @ 101 in factory trim, thinking it would put me in the 6's @ 102-103.
Want to get back onto a track, but don't like the idea of warping my rotors again. I tried to do hard braking and then let off to prevent dragging when I was on silverstone. But I don't think it helped...
They're light by modern standards at about 1400-1500kg a piece, but European sports cars (which are about the same if not heavier) are far too fat as well. When they go racing though the production weight is immaterial because the majority of it serves no purpose on a performance car.
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Anyone Into Drag Racing ??
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