The art of trailbraking is one I don't think you can be told how to do really (apart from the initial concept).

Obviously, you brake, but keep the brakes on (a small amount, and reducing as you turn) in order to keep the maximum speed possible, and use the maximum grip available for your tyres.

Some cars/setups like it, others are too unstable to use it. But it comes with practice. I guess one way to learn is to brake say 10m later than normal, and try to get round the corner without running wide or locking a wheel. As you get better then concentrate on keeping your apex and exit speeds high (use the end of the kerbs as good reference points).

Eventually you'll trailbrake without really thinking about it - you just know when and where to do it. If you car is oversteering as you do it, try either a bit more front brake bias, or even braking against the throttle.

Hope it helps, but I'm no driving god, so don't blame me if it doesn't work [/get out clause]

Don't know about LFS but in the real world I can explain how trail braking works and is something I do to avoid understeer at the turn in point. Tristan is quite right in saying that it can't be done on a car that oversteers off throttle near max speed for the corner. In this case you don't need to trail brake, just lift off. I've tried setting fast times with my Golf set up like this but it just leads to inconsistency unless you have awesome driving skills. Better to have it set up to only oversteer under braking. Much easier for drivers with limited experience, like myself, I admit it

When you hit the brakes this compresses the springs and shifts the weight to the front of the car. So, you are heading towards the turn in point of a corner and braking hard to get your speed down. If you try to turn in whilst hard on the brakes you will slide. This is because the tyres only have a limited amount of grip to give. At this point you are using all the grip (longitudinal) to slow the car, so if you turn, the tyres need some grip (lateral) but none is available because you are already using it to brake. This concept is known as the traction circle.

So, you reach turn in and start to lift off the brakes slightly as you turn in. this releases some of the tyres available grip for turning. There is energy stored in the springs because they have been compressed by your braking. As you release the brake, this energy is released and the spring a) pushes on the topmounts, lifting the front of the car back to its static height, b) pushes down on the hubs pushing the tyre into the track surface. This gives more grip and this is trail braking. It may also have the affect of reducing grip at the back, giving you slight oversteer to help you get the nose of the car to the apex.

So, as you turn in, you trail the brake slightly until you reach the apex, avoiding understeer.

Want to know about 'hinting'? Doubt it's been programmed into the game though.

Quote from Vain :

Then I discovered that the setups I sometimes recieved were understeering by nature. That means the car is only balanced while braking. That was my key to trail-braking. Induce a bit of understeer (I'm talking of minimal changes, 1kN is often enough) in the suspension and you will actually have to trail-brake to keep the car turning.

yes most fast setups have a strong tendency to understeer at the turn in i always coped with it by reducing the front arb substentially but after ive given it a bit of thought the problem is that i dont trailbrake so i lose a lot of time all the way through the corner
yesterday when it finally dawned on me its time i started trailbraking again i only had little time so i just downloaded some fast gti setups and assumed they were set up for trailbraking (didnt even bother to test if the understeer when i dont) the effect was massive oversteer so i probably turned the wheel too fast and too much (a bad habbit that comes from using setups that arent fit for trailbraking)

but anyway thx for the tips vain and tristan i guess ill just have to try over and over again until i get the hang of it

Quote from CharlieP :

Theres a nice idea for us noobs....

A track guide, showing overtaking points, best lines etc.....

A nice jpeg would suit

Anyone of the 'good people' up for that ? aliens or otherwise

just use the AnalyzeForSpeed tool to see your line and a reference line (i.e. WR)

Quote from Gentlefoot :

Want to know about 'hinting'? Doubt it's been programmed into the game though.

hinting ? never heard of it so pls elaborate

I found in the game (and I only have very limited experience) that fiddling with the damping settings has the most affect during turn in because at this point weight is being tranferred from back to front of the car and back again.

As for hinting, it's a pretty simple thing. I was tought it when I went on a race driving course. It's called hinting because you give the car a hint of what is to come. For example, you are heading towards a corner and about to hit the brakes. Instead of just slamming them on, you touch them gently for a split second before you apply full braking force. This has the affect of giving all the suspension bushes etc (anything that has play) a chance to be loaded slightly. So when you brake hard everything is already in place. Its exactly the same idea with steering. Turn the wheel very slightly a split second before you turn hard.
Hope if explained it adequately.

Basically I drive my own race and hope to come good through the first corner. Then I don't care much about the people who are 6 or more seconds faster or slower than me each round.

i never played much with the damper values ... and i probably wont for at least until i have a simple tool to tell me how much ill mess up a nicely critically damped suspension by doing so (too lazy to work it out myself ^^)

then again you could just tighten those screws properly to reduce play in the bearings gears etc

Quote from tristancliffe :

Absolutely!!!! That's why we have so many accidents. No one has patience to hold back until an overtaking point, and just try to force their way though a car! If only more people in LFS would sit down and learn to overtake (and that includes some of the aliens )

Me, me, me here, patience is key to victory and I'm very glad to see also someone else that has same thoughts in this, I think we are rare cases

New ppl could try to brake in different line than one they are tailing, there would be so much less accidents. Usually there is accident because of following too close and when first car is braking second have not even time to touch brake pedal.

We are not F1 drivers (I think?) so we might have bit slower reactions and less ability to control car when close racing so it is better to respect other car's space and concentrate more to own lines and cornering, usually that way it is easier to overtake than following within 5mm from other's bumper.

Also some seem to race with luck, it may be succesful, but I would not recommend it, it is not as rewarding as doing it properly.

But who am I to tell these, I have made probably all mistakes too, just earlier than some.

yday i tried 5 laps in gti around bw and did three high 1.32's in a row. so its not that hard. i hadnt run lfs in a while
unrusting for the physics buildup


ps: should be about same difficulty as running 1.29s on toban long with f3.

Quote from Gentlefoot :

Don't know about LFS but in the real world I can explain how trail braking works and is something I do to avoid understeer at the turn in point. Tristan is quite right in saying that it can't be done on a car that oversteers off throttle near max speed for the corner. In this case you don't need to trail brake, just lift off. I've tried setting fast times with my Golf set up like this but it just leads to inconsistency unless you have awesome driving skills. Better to have it set up to only oversteer under braking. Much easier for drivers with limited experience, like myself, I admit it

When you hit the brakes this compresses the springs and shifts the weight to the front of the car. So, you are heading towards the turn in point of a corner and braking hard to get your speed down. If you try to turn in whilst hard on the brakes you will slide. This is because the tyres only have a limited amount of grip to give. At this point you are using all the grip (longitudinal) to slow the car, so if you turn, the tyres need some grip (lateral) but none is available because you are already using it to brake. This concept is known as the traction circle.

So, you reach turn in and start to lift off the brakes slightly as you turn in. this releases some of the tyres available grip for turning. There is energy stored in the springs because they have been compressed by your braking. As you release the brake, this energy is released and the spring a) pushes on the topmounts, lifting the front of the car back to its static height, b) pushes down on the hubs pushing the tyre into the track surface. This gives more grip and this is trail braking. It may also have the affect of reducing grip at the back, giving you slight oversteer to help you get the nose of the car to the apex.

So, as you turn in, you trail the brake slightly until you reach the apex, avoiding understeer.

Want to know about 'hinting'? Doubt it's been programmed into the game though.

That is a wonderful explanation. You really need to add that to the manual Wiki.

I doubt that "hinting" is actually programmed in with bushing preloads and play, but I find that it will help depending on setup. The program definitely models weight shift, and a bit of a hint can preload tires and start the weight shift so it is not so violent, which will usually keep your tires stuck to the pavement.

Thanks Hallen! That's made my day. Cheers mate!

What time can be done with default su?

I did now 10 laps and my pb did come down 3 seconds, I had not driven with Gti for very long time, 2-3months or so.

Quote from Vain :

My impression is that anyone can go online and be competitive when you can beat the (trained) AI in singleplayer.

Vain

When I got S-1, aside from a couple a console games, I never played any
racing ANYTHING. My driving was so bad, the A.I. voted to ban me.... so I had to learn LFS on multi player

Quote from KiDCoDEa :

yday i tried 5 laps in gti around bw and did three high 1.32's in a row. so its not that hard. i hadnt run lfs in a while
unrusting for the physics buildup


ps: should be about same difficulty as running 1.29s on toban long with f3.

Ya, but you've been around since the beginning dude! You have the LFS
physics asimilated (spelling... heck not even sure it's a word in english lol).
It's like the saying "you never forget how to ride a bicycle". I'm sure even
after 10 years, you could just jump on a bike and ride it well.

He's trying to get the feel of LFS which is admitedly, quite specific to LFS.
In fact, this is what made me 'fall for LFS', the way things happen as they
do in real life. I wasn't critisizing it's lack of grip at the limit when i first played
LFS, i was simply amazed that a sim actually cared enough about all these
things to simulate them (all of it!). I remember my first drive...

"Oh, and i have settings to play with it too ?!!! Coohhhooooooollll "

Others will tell you, the accent is on LIVE and not SPEED, as in, you
will literally LIVE for LFS at one point Better prepare your spouse if you
have one, else you better get your divorce lawyer right now hehe.

Well, today, when I started to drive I had a fall back in old times and drove 1:37 again But on the whole it's getting better I think ...

As for the rwd cars I have now completely given up on them and will leave them to others since I am obviously to stupid for them. Instead I will concentrate on the gti and a few others like the fxr.

Thanks again for all the tips, they helped me a lot together with the wiki help

I try not to advertise my own stuff too much (hehe, yeah, shut it) but have you tried my easy race setups from the setups forum here? They have helped people get to grips with the RWD road cars. If you have then... there's no hope for you.

Quote from Bob Smith :

I try not to advertise my own stuff too much (hehe, yeah, shut it) but have you tried my easy race setups from the setups forum here? They have helped people get to grips with the RWD road cars. If you have then... there's no hope for you.

I haven't tried them yet, will do (when my frustration about the rwds is gone) maybe, but my problem is not the oversteering itself, but rather the fact, that (as I see it from watching replays) you _have_ to use those massively oversteering setups with the rwd cars to be fast. So that is what I was trying. It doesn't make sense to just drive those cars around the track when you have to change your driving style completely again in order to be fast.

Actually I can hotlap quite ok with them, got an 1:09:3x with the fzr (flotch's setup), but it seems, I have to deal with the fact, that 95% of my rounds end up in the wall, so no way I could ever do a race with them.

Quote from Ardent :

Actually I can hotlap quite ok with them, got an 1:09:3x with the fzr (flotch's setup), but it seems, I have to deal with the fact, that 95% of my rounds end up in the wall, so no way I could ever do a race with them.

dont worry about that too much ... just do it over and over and over again ... youre already driving at a pretty descent pace ... now all you need to do is work out those little mistakes that send you off track and into the wall ... its a tedious process but one thats worth everly little success you get

Ya, seriously, you are probably faster than me and i don't keep myself from
going online. Sure some guys are fast, but from my experience, some are
slow, some are really slow and some are even dangerous! I'd prefer having
you in the server and have a good race instead Not many people can race
their perfect line in a race so you could be surprised, you might even win a
few

Do S2 people a favor (and yourself obviously) and go online a few times.
If you stick to FWD servers you might be more confortable, but beware, FWD
servers usually also have tough competition as the GTi is probably the easiest
FWD to keep at the limit and it's also the one which people have driven the
most. Some have been racing it for 3 years now...

As for the RWD cars, it always makes me laugh how the younger the person
the harder they find RWD cars. Think of it this way, FWD is relatively recent,
ANYONE over 30 has driven RWD cars. Heck, your grand mother and/or
grand father drove them all the time in rain and snow (and the BAD ones,
not the easy to drive modern rwd cars) and they all managed to live through
it. Most of them will counter-steer naturally and understand the
throttle/turning relationship without really thinking about it. So i say, if your
granma can do it, you can do it too

You need to understand the weight transfer and it's effects to understand
how LFS simulates them, and also where it is NOT simulating them so well.
Driving a few real rwd cars helps as rwd is a feeling that is hard to describe.
RWD cars pivot on the rear axle, so the front 'moves to the inside' when
you turn, whereas FWD cars pivot around the front axle, the rear 'moves
to the outside' as you turn.

In a fwd, the throttle has a direct and almost linear relationship with the
front grip. More throttle = Less grip

In a rwd, the throttle has a complex relationship with grip and that's one of
the main attraction of rwd, this is why it's fun imo. You can reach a point
where more throttle=oversteer but less throttle ALSO= oversteer.
Braking and counter-steering slightly while SLOWLY coming off the throttle
is the only way to reduce it, but you better pray nothing is in your way.
For the more macho, rwd will always be the man's choice. (edit after the following post..)

Rambling OFF.

Quote from Fonnybone :

For the more macho, rwd will always be the man's choice where fwd is
for girl's.

Rambling OFF.

You were doing great until that last comment

not "girl's" choice, its the "girley" choice

Quote from Fonnybone :

some are
slow, some are really slow and some are even dangerous!

yeah, with the gti I'm in group no. 1, with the xrg I'm in group no. 2 while with the fzr, I'm in group no. 3. In a race would be so focused to keep my car on the track, so no way I can watch out for other cars.

I have another technical question for the rwd's. As I can now drive constant laps with the xrg I'm still significiant slower comparing to the gti. The reason is obviously that I have to release throttle on each corner exit to avoid the oversteer of death. Watching the replays I see the guys keeping their foot fully on the pedal. So how do you do that ? tried it with excessive countersteering, but no good.

btw. I also tried bob's setups, but they're giving me a hard time when braking as they will oversteer with no chance of catching the car.

to get the xrg to speed out of ther corner under full throttle without excessive oversteer you have to get it into a nice controllable 4 wheel drift before the apex (cant tell you how to do it though since i cant get that thing round corners fast either ^^)

Gentlefoot, really nice explaination, didn't know what trail breaking was or what it did before this thread thanks. I have been doing this with some cars already without realising..guess I learnt the hard way

Don't suppose you're alone either mate. I find it very effective when using my left foot to do the braking and keeping a tiny bit of throttle on at the same time. This also makes the transition from braking to accelerating and vica versa, shorter and smoother.