this makes it sound as thou people on the server treat new people with disrespect?
maybe you mean that it takes a while to know who you can race wheel to wheel closely but fairly as opposed to people who you would not trust running side by side for half a lap around one of the SO courses?
i would have to say that there is a 'peckin order' or a 'respected' order on the server, which means if someone knows you or your team and you have a crash, they know that its not a wreck - its a mistake
I share that thought and am very thankfully to Becky and the admins for the server and the licensing system, this thread isn't about that though and my comment was that I haven't seen that many people who regard the STCC servers as being a place where clean racing thrives, a lot of it may be down to their unfairly earnt reputation from people who have been unlucky enough to be on at bad times who post in threads like this. But I'm afraid that personally apart from the times when the server is full of admins and well respected people it seems to fall into anarchy.
The drivers on the server having everything to do with the server. For whatever reason they choose to race like they do on the STCC server. It's probably just the wrong mix of drivers who have been attracted to the STCC servers by what they offer. Of course no ones decided the server will be like it is, it's just evolved that way. No criticism of the admins or the server, just the mixture seems to result in less clean racing.
who me? (col looks over his shoulder then assumes its him)
in a negative way
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I think its down to the fact that there are some racers who in a situation where you make a fair move to pass them and win the corner rights, will let you through if they see you as being faster than them, but will close the door unfairly if they think you are new therefor slower than them....
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as to whether this is relevant to the silver servers, I dunno, I was just trying to assure niels1 that it's a wider attitude problem in the hope that it would help him deal with it rather than give up on the CTRA.
My experience generally is that CTRA is a good place to get clean, fair, highly competitive racing. I think he reason there is a lot of discussion and complaining about the standards is because the folks in charge will listen and are actively developing systems to make it cleaner and better...
I started this thread because my perception at the time was that things were getting worse and that the reporting system was starting to fail... that perception was proved valid - it turned out that the reporting system was actually broken !
Since then things have IMO improved, reporting works again, and now if there is bad behaviour, I can report it and it will be dealt with - so its not nearly as big a deal )
There are always going to be idiots on track - fact of LFS
If you report an idiot and nothing happens and you see the same guy doing the same things the next day, then that is bad and makes CTRA look bad - this was happening but has been fixed.
No I am aware of this attitude precisely because I was _not_ new, but because I had been away from LFS for maybe a year, I was seen as new by many of the less experienced racers some of whom took that as a green light to treat me unfairly on track
eh? This is my personal experience - take it or leave it - up to you.
That's simply not true. I'm sorry but I've had a couple of dips back into the Bronze servers and it's been full of idiots. Is it like this all the time? No. I'm sure it isn't, but nor are the silver servers.
When there is poor driving on the silver servers it is usually at the back/middle of the pack among the newer drivers. These drivers have all come from the bronze servers, so if those servers are so clean why do the drivers turn into idiots when they get on the silver servers?
Lets get thing back into perspective here...I would say the vast majority of the time on the silver severs is good. Occasionally i join and wonder what the hell is going on with regards to the poor driving(yesterday evening for instance there was some truly shocking driving), but 90% of the time i find clean racing and a good atmosphere. There seem to be small periods of bad stuff happening, but it's the exception rather than the rule.
One trend i have noticed though is FXO drivers thinking its their right to be at the front because they have a faster car. Just remember you have to earn that right by overtaking cleanly, not by barging your way through or making stupidly late braking manoeuvres. When the server is going through a 'silly period' it does get all a bit too much like BTCC at times. That doesn't create a good impression for the newcomers at all, although i must re-stress that this is, in my experience,still a minority of the the time.
As has been mentioned many times, the only way to stamp these incidents out is to file reports.
I for one am as guilty as most of not actually reporting incidents.. I did once and asked if it was the kind of thing that needed reporting but got no reply, so that kind of put me off bothering. I hear the system has improved so i will start reporting if the incidents deserve it.
The only way to get the racing back to 99% clean is to weed out the crap and disrespectful racers.
The CTRA have provided the reporting system and actively encourage it's use. Lets use it.
Instead of having stupid squabbles on the server, save a replay..go and check it to make sure the incident really happened as you think it did, (often how it seemed from in the cockpit is not how it happened when viewed from another perspective) and if the incident is worth reporting then do it.
It`s got nothing to do with being treated unfairly. When a racer enters server as a "newbie" or "noob" for that matter if always tried to help them instead of ignore them. We al have or had to learn it. If they want the set i`m driving i will share it. Why it`s better to have 10 good racers on track then 9 wreckers or crashers. I always learned to treat people with respect weither you like the person or not.
I think you should know better then that. Now you call all drivers coming from bronze server iditos ?
I had my own server running for a year with PitStopUK on demo and S2. I never banned a racer from my server. I or the admins tried to reasone with the racer. Generally this worked. If not then there was what I called "selection of nature". By letting the other racers vote. But only kick the racer of the server and what even worked better was letting them observe. We disabeld them to enter race so all they could do was watch.
Oeff I started something this morning. Not mine intension. But like the admins already steated it is a S2 issue instead of a server issue.
incorrect... practice and speed does not mean that yo are a clean or unclean racer thats the problem, not that there are just slow people on the track.
Not at all, ...you've misunderstood my point.
I was just saying that I've joined the bronze servers a few times and there has been some absolutely crap driving going on, but I'm sure it isn't like that all the time, just as it isn't like that all the time on the silver servers either.
I was also making the point that if all these drivers arriving from the bronze servers were as clean as someone suggested then there wouldn't be any incidents at all.
There are some pretty poorly behaved drivers of all license category's tbh. I'm certainly not having a go at bronze/silver licence holders and blaming them for everything. If that's how it came across then i apologise.
I've been a big supporter of education over punishment since the original STCC servers went live with their driver notes system. After the 'higher' standard STCC servers where are only recourse was to ban and it wasn't working out ... it's WHY we introduced the notes system.
One of the things that bothers me about trying to explain to drivers how to drive is that sometimes they dont get it - which is when we ban, usually first off it's a short ban to show we mean business, and if things carry on then it's for life.
Limiting people to spectator only is a great idea and ties in nicely with the policy of educating poor drivers. This combined with the new extended messaging system will give us the tools to give us a proper stab at rehabilitating those who dont get what the servers are about without having to resort to the dreaded ban.
Actually we dont have many life bans on the CTRA servers, we preffer to use points deductions as our stick.
Alas, sometimes it's the only way we can enact our duty of care to the other racers .
Well, it's easier to have a proper accident in the TBOs, they require a lot more practice to race them safely. I believe (generally speaking) I've seen cleaner racing on the lower tier servers, but I did concede it might've been down to the cars, at least in part.
This is the way that made the server fill up every night. There was never 1 evening that the server wasn`t full. The funny thing was that people who we made spectator`s suddenly start correcting people when they started wrecking.
But I hope that you can make it auto spectate by using a script or something because it was a hell of job getting it right. We did it manually but there is gotta be a way to get auto.
I wasn`t in favor of letting other racers vote but like you said sometime`s racers just wouldnyt listen at all. Then there is just way and that is out unfornatley.
Well that is actually what made go in shock last night. Due to the high standards STCC is holding on to I never expected the behavouir I saw last night.
I have to say i was disappointed with the driving i witnessed in a couple of races yesterday evening as well, it was the worst I've ever known it in 4 months.
Don't take that as the usual standard on the CTRA servers, it's never been that bad before.
I didn't save any replays of it though so I'm not helping the situation. Did you?
If it's that bad again then save the replays...I will. Let the admins decide what to do the evidence.
Being a new silver licensed driver, I've seen everything at the bronze servers, from the very worse to the very best.
The explanation is simple : the entry is free to everyone with or without an existing license. The real wreckers tend to not finish their races and will give up before earning the silver license. This is the reason why there is more dirty driving in the bronze ones. Also, the UF1000 is a good starting point for a new driver as a driving experience, but it also make passing more difficults because the race are often closer, so it increase the chance of bad moves. With faster cars, the critical point is the start of the race, but after a few laps, the fastest drivers will inevitably reach the front and the bad drivers will go backwards. In a bronze UF1 race, it can be a real pain to pass slower drivers if they are driving in crazy bowling mode.
Remember that being a bronze licensed race != being a newbie.
I've only started racing seriously with LFS in the last few months and started racing at the CTRA servers a few weeks ago, but although I've only done 7500km in LFS, I'm a simracer since the good old Papyrus Indianapolis 500 and I started racing online 7 years ago with GPL.
This is just a post to make the point that being a bronze licensed or new silver licensed driver doesn't mean anything at all, and no conclusion can be made of this. Only the driving behaviour matters.
Totally agree LB I was on the other night in these races after 3 races of struggling at the back due to Divebombers (I think you get what I mean) I caught a break when there was a pile up at the sharp 90 left at the bottom of the hill T2 SO long anyway came out 4th got up to 3rd and held it to the end the following races went 3rd 5th 4th before I had to leave no problems at the front of the pack and Moose these were the races where you went the other way infact I'm sure 3 races Moose never finished before eventually leaving
Well I'm not surprised he left, if he got wiped out each race. Very frustrating. It happened to me earlier in the day and usually after about 2 or 3 races you get up the field a bit. I didn't get up at all but I saw quite a few fields all right.
Anyhow, going back to a previous point re the problem being with new silver qualified drivers, I have to agree BUT I don't entirely place the blame with them. Most of it but not all.
I think the bronze servers are too lenient on bad driving antics (I do still race there occasionally) as indeed is the policy, which is to allow a little more lee-way for newbies. It sounds reasonable on the surface but it doesn't work in practise. The problem with it is that some drivers arrive on the silver server and behave in the same way and drive in the same manner as they always did because they have not been corrected on the bronze server. If the bronze server functioned correctly, they would arrive with an "education" I'm trying desperately not to sound patronising because we all came through the same system but the difference is that some catch on quickly that the standards are/should be higher and unfortunately with some, the penny never drops. In the event that the ratio of those who don't get it becomes higher to those that do, then there is going to be a big problem.
What I'm basically saying is that fundamentally from the outset ie. on new/bronze servers, the standard of driving required must be the same as that of the silver/gold in order that the transition is easier and an overall standard can be attained and maintained as they move over to silver. This would mean that more drivers would hit the silver servers running and not be found floundering about disrupting races. I've studied and talked to some of these drivers (rather than report) and they aren't wreckers, some just do not know any better. That isn't always the case but nevertheless I feel that all these creases should have been ironed out on the bronze server before they ever get near the silver. Would this make for a better silver/gold server racing experience? Darn right it would.
So, as I see it, some of the fault lies with the fact that there are 2 seperate driving standards but they don't transition very well. I'd like to see that transition be seamless and the only way to do it is to ensure that the same rigid standards are maintained on both server levels.
When the original STCC servers started a significant proportion of LFS'rs thought it was ok to rejoin into traffic. When I say a significant proportion, I mean that I watched people with big name team tags and good league results who did not think twice about driving straight back onto the circuit. Fewer still grasped the concept of overlap on overtaking. I was sick of throwing out 90 day bans at them and them getting attitude about how great their team was and how I knew nothing. So I figured, how to deal with this?
I picked out the bigger sins and make them rules visible on every restart. Then on server 2 I added some rules, and again on server 3 (which never took off). I put what was expected of the drivers on every restart aswell as the overall rules on the web site.
We didn't expect new & bronze to know about overlap, because we knew we where trying to enforce more basic and fundamental rules.
LFS has changed a lot since we've been running, it's grown up a lot. I'd like to think that the STCC played a part in that - I think it did - but obviously there are other influences as well, and I think mostly that's because experienced players have returned to online LFS racing. There are more veterans online of an evening these days, and that's mostly down to the program itself maturing.
I know there where good racers in LFS, I know that many people knew how to drive - but they had mostly given up on public racing. I know I had: I was sick of driving into slow moving vehicles with dirt on their tyres.
Along with an overall improvement in general LFS standards of driving, you've come to expect more. The needs on the system have changed, but the system hasn't been able too. I can only put a few rules on the restart messages - infact Sam does them now I dont even know what they say anymore.
With the new system Scawen has given us the tools to do much more, we can make reading server rules an absolute pre-requisite - of course, we cant make understanding and obeying them compulsory but the improvements in the reporting system should see to that.
What shall I say?
This evening we had a guy that ignored blue flag and rammed me (because I was leading the race).
Next race there was some guy who changed his nickname identically like mine and started ramming and flaming at people. I suddendly left because I was pretty angry.
I really hope that these people get what they deserve...
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