As you are most probably aware, we are toying with the idea of two class racing in the upcoming season. However, contrary to other statements earlier, we are not finally decided on the matter.

The idea was brought up to use weight and power restrictions for the regular GTR class in order to create a GT2 class. While this idea sounded great at first, we are not really confident it can result in an enjoyable experience. The downforce and mechanical grip levels will remain the same, making the GT2 class most probably somewhat boring to drive and presenting problems with passing for GT1 as cornering speeds for both classes would be just as high.

Using the FWD GTR would be the simplest way, though there are concerns about FWD being the right drivetrain choice for a second class in MoE. The votes in favor of any two class racing will be counted together against those votes that are against two class racing.

Time differences and the danger of slower cars being driven of the track is not really one of our concerns. We are looking for high level of racecraft in our teams anyways and such racecraft would also consist of having respect for slower cars and being able to wide a corner or three to lap a slower class car (or any car for that matter). Therefore all teams and their drivers applying for MoE should be capable of handling such situations.

However, we would like to have a general overview of the opinions, which is why we are giving this poll. It will not be binding for us, we just want some tendencies in what people want. So vote away.

The poll closes in 21 days and is public.

I vote for the little FWD cars, because it's a matter of watching: If you are in the race, and you run up to a GT2 car (when you are GT1, or vice versa), you simply cant see, if the car is in your class or not, if they are only restricted ones. The small GTRs you can see, and know, what's coming.

If the restricted GTRs choice follows through, either way the cars should be having different sunstrip colors to show what class they are in... or something similar. Possibly bright red and blue sunstrips, and/or something else on the car near the bumper. But yeah, to ease that difficulty of idenification of a slower/faster class, the FWD is much easier of course. But it should be understandable when a faster GT1 is coming up behind you because of the speed difference. And cars can safely pass each other if there is a restricted GT2 class.

I vote for a restricted GT2 class because it would be more fun, and the FWD cars are a tad too slow against the GT1 cars... I imagine more huge accidents could happen, and they will.

Overall there are pros and cons for either of the two choices:

FWD
Pro: They are also fairly stable and look different to that of GT1 cars, which is nice. Would make the series look better having noticeably slower/smaller looking cars as a GT2 class.
Con: FWD cars are too slow and unsafe

Restircted GTRs
Con: Restricted GT2 cars look the same (a hazard for racing possibly?), and the restrictions put in place would be hard to monitor.
Pro: They also are safer on the track because of their cornering and speed being just a bit slower.

And having an all GT1 class grid would be boring for the mid-to-back field teams. So I think it is a MUST that we try to some kind of agreement for two-class racing in MoE.

I voted for a two class mGTR (FWD) & GTR grid.

Motivation:
The handling of the restricted GTR's will be close to similar to the GT1. The positive side of this, is that the cornering speed and approach of these cars is (close to) equal to the GT1 class, which, theoretically, should lead to saver take overs (only on the straights for instance). The negative side is that the actual class differences between the GT1 and GT2 class would be very small and not really be experienced as a 'second class' but more as overtaking backmarkers (in the same class). There are more comparisons to make with regard to this matter, see the other people who posted - pro's and con's, so I'll go straight to my main point:

In additional to the comparison explained above, I think the LFS GT already has proven that the combination of the FWD and GTR's is very entertaining: the different used cars, each with their own unique handling, have proven to be a good combination of different classes and still being able for competition in each class, without being in each others way all the time.

Building forth on what is started with the integration of LFS GT using the FWD would be most logical (imo). In addition you could even have MoE running with mGTR's and LFS GT running with a two classes of GTRs: 1 normal, 1 horsepower restricted. By doing so you remain with MoE as being a pro-competition with a proven concept (thus no surprises) and use LFS GT as your platform to grow potential interests for MoE and testing purposes.

I personally would use the option of weight penalties to increase the competition: for instance give the top3 weight penalties, but ok, that discussion is outside this specific thread.

pretty simple answer for me: one class racing, as from my experience 2 class racing never worked out and ended up in slower cars ignoring blue flags or in ridiculous behaviour while lapping, which again leads to useless crashing.

The one disadvantage is that there are really only maybe 5 or 6 top teams that are truly championship contenders in MoE. IF we had a full 30 car grid of just one class, imagine how easy it would be for a backmarker team to just 'give up' or not get any points? Would be quite boring for them, and there could be fast GT2 teams as well, and they'd be shooting for their own championship. People are generally pretty good while racing under blue flag... I don't think it really matters what car you have, you'll get some mistakes on behalf of the backmarkers no matter what car they use, even a GTR if it was all one-class.

The two class racing gives MoE some diversity and variety, rather than leaving the title to just a few top teams in only one class. There can still be plenty of normal GTR cars to go around (16+), so there certainly wouldn't be any shortage. But people should learn to drive in multi-class races, especially for endurance. Real endurance racing drivers have to deal with this all the time, and I don't see why you'd be so "scared" about it. If you can't drive with slower cars on the track (and vice versa), then you need to step away from the norm and try something proper for endurance racing.

A GT1 car could easily avoid an accident from a slow-going GT2 car, you have to be smart not to make any mistakes. And likewise, if there are stupid mistakes, penalties will be given. The majority of teams that have great racecraft have a growing interest in MoE this season, specifically for the 2-class racing. The more experienced teams would want to be in GT1, while other new entry-level teams would probably opt for GT2.

It isn't some mystery that there will be fast and slow cars on the track, I am sure everyone will be WELL aware of that. So I think your fear of accidents isn't unusual (happens all the time in real endu racing), but still kind of wimpy

In LFS GT (which had the FWD for the 2nd class), they had some nasty accidents between 2 classes, but it wasn't like every lap. They all looked to be easily avoidable, yet it is so easy to blame it on the slower car.

Kudos

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as from my experience 2 class racing never worked out and ended up in slower cars ignoring blue flags or in ridiculous behaviour while lapping, which again leads to useless crashing

As said before, that is not an argument in this discussion. Especially you with your experience and high level of driving should be able to cope with such a situation if you used your brain. People may not be used to two class racing atm, they will be after this season. If there are nasty accidents, there will be nasty penalties, simple as that. Rest assured that we will closely monitor such situations and use the appropriate measures in order to reduce them to the unavoidable minimum that we have right now as well with one class racing.

Yeah, it is basically saying "I am not a cautious driver"

2 class racing already works in the LfS GT League. Why shouldn`t it work here? And I think all driver`s of the MoE have got enough experience how to overtake the slower GT2 cars. That shouldn´t be the problem.

I would really like to the the FWD cars on the track, mainly because of the bigger variety of cars, but I also think that they are a bit too slow compared to the bigger GTRs. (Can't we restrict the bigger gtrs to avoid the big speed gap?)

Having only raced one endurance event with multiple car classes I can agree with n1lyn and say that it really isn't all that great. The 24HR @ Kyoto a few weeks back was more then enough for me, admittedly I found overtaking the LX6's the most difficult but the FWD GTR classes were just as tricky.

One class gets my vote

Well the 24H Kyoto race was open to anyone and full of noobs, there were crashes left and right. Not a fair comparison imo.

EDIT: My vote STAYS for restricted GTRs

My vote goes to GTR and restricted GT2. I think it's pretty easy to put on special colors on the lower body part around the car or just with big stickers. That would be enough for the drivers to look out for.
The less speed difference is another good reason. Just imagine how lucky the team in a fast GT2 would be if they come near a GTR car. Would be interesting to see if that happens ...
But honestly the safer overtaking is a very good reason.

2 class racing worked out great in LFSGT with a few exceptions (Aston). Even in Westhill with those narrow and fast turns I can't remeber any problems. I still voted for "One class racing" because it gives more opponents on the same level and not just overlapping.

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because it gives more opponents on the same level and not just overlapping.

No disrespect to our participating teams, but out of what hat are we supposed to pull more teams on the level of tHUNder, Cyber, SK, pod, Mercury, 1st, #low and n!faculty? There has been a severe drop off from the top of the field before and I seriously doubt with the increase of teams in the grid that this drop off will be less severe. I'd rather have a second class with another set of competitive teams competing for their championship than folks being not able to run at the same speed as the leaders and thus losing the fun in racing.

(disclaimer: this was a statement from a driver's point of view, not an admin's).

And if the 2nd class turns out to be a FWD class, I bet a lot of fair/fast teams will jump to the occasion it and sign up for MoE for the first time simply because of the other available class to compete in, and not have the fear of knowing they will be outright dominated by the teams mentioned in Hoellsen's post above.

The downside to having the restricted GTRs is that it will be somewhat of a new car for everyone, and not something anyone is well accustomed to (versus the FWD GTRs). I'd very much like to see two championships at stake, rather than one... especially when the grid is expected to be twice as large this season, and there is available room for such a setup. Of the teams last season, I'd say the top 8 are very competitive for points, while the remaining half were there for the experience and to enjoy it. If you added even more of those such teams all into one class, it just adds to the amount of teams that are truly out of 'contention' for good points. If you try to get more and more fast teams into GT1, that would be great, but as already stated, you will only find about a good top 10 max of fast teams to fill GT1 (plus 5 or 6 more entry-level teams) (and the same entry-count applies for GT2). Other teams (new or veteran to MoE) could choose to go in the GT2 class, and have something to fight for there. 2 winners is better than 1 in my book .

A slow moving car shouldn't be a problem to pass by. Everyone here is experienced enough to be patient and cautious right? On every track in the schedule, there is easily several corners ahead of you to see a car in advance.... these cars don't just appear 'out of the blue' and act as a brick wall.... you have time to slow down.

I wish those that voted would comment in this discussion.

I voted for Two Class Racing with FWD GTR cars as GT2. Just because of the reason allready mentioned above. Completely different looking cars, other handeling (not just restricted, but also other corner speeds) etc.

Some people may be forgetting than even if it is true that the small GTRs provide a true new class to racing, they are still FWD, and some (most I think) people dont enjoy driving them as much as RWD cars. Yeah it looks very cool in the stream seeing new cars, but it is really worth it? Driver's enjoyment should be above the spectators IMO.

If there was an N-GT class with less powered RWD cars I'd go for it as GT2, but since we got nothing like that, my vote goes for restricted GTRs.

After tweaking about with my own GT500/GT300 league for a while i voted for restricted GTR's as a second class.

Restricted GTR's can be VERY VERY tightly balanced, providing tighter racing.

2 classes are a good thing, for both drivers and viewers. With more than one class if nothign is happening in one class, just cut to the other. (just think how boring Le Mans would be with ONLY LMP cars)

It could also be interesting to see the strategy differences between GT1/2 teams. One group might get a lot longer wear out of tires and fuel.

BTW as a reply to the current standings (7/3/07):

Multiclass percentages needs to be combined (restricted 23.94% & FWD 35.21% = 59.15%) vs the one car class 40.85%. Then the second step would be to look at the multiclass and its given options , for each percentage has been given.

I voted for 1 class racing, simply for the same reasons as Nils, it's putting something else into the mix that could go wrong for your team. (caused by yourself or someone else) I have done the multiclass racing from the FW GTR cars and the bigger GTR's and I can't say the success rate of finishing a race without stupid accidents were any better than the other.

In the 24 hour race I was overtaking 2 FWD GTR's and it seemed pretty simple at the time, they both left me enough room to overtake, but when I came to overtake the second one he must only have been taking an extremely wide line to get a better exit from the corner, which is fine, but from my angle it didn't look that way, anyway, caused an accident and we both lost a good amount of time. I can admit it was probarly my fault for not waiting behind for the age it takes them to get through a few corners, but if you are given a gap that appears to be for your car to go through you will allways take it.

I just think it wont be for the benefit of the series, there will be so many unhappy teams at being knocked off by a car in the other class, it will affect the overall results and luck will play a huge part in each race.

I wouldn't mind the slowed down GTR's to be honest as I think Appie pointed out they will only be slower on the straights, so being behind a GT2 car on a corner will lose you far less time than the FWD GTR.

Quote from Hoellsen :

No disrespect to our participating teams, but out of what hat are we supposed to pull more teams on the level of tHUNder, Cyber, SK, pod, Mercury, 1st, #low and n!faculty? There has been a severe drop off from the top of the field before and I seriously doubt with the increase of teams in the grid that this drop off will be less severe. I'd rather have a second class with another set of competitive teams competing for their championship than folks being not able to run at the same speed as the leaders and thus losing the fun in racing.

(disclaimer: this was a statement from a driver's point of view, not an admin's).

Hi all , it is a bit of time that i am lurking that forum because we as team are evalutating to eventually join moe this or next (after lfs gt) year.

From my point of view, i would prefer single class racing, because it's true that there is only one winner and only a bunch of really fast teams seems to have some chances of win races, but that's why i want to compete against them, not for trying to win a secondary race done for people that noone think would be able to keep up with fastest team's speed.

The real challenge will always be GT1, so if we have to train for months for getting ready for an endurance race at least we want to have the opportunity to race where the real challenge is. And we will arrive 1th, 10th, 20th, 30th or last, who cares, at least we will not blame ourselves for not having tried the big one

Quote from Bawbag :

I voted for 1 class racing, simply for the same reasons as Nils, it's putting something else into the mix that could go wrong for your team. (caused by yourself or someone else) I have done the multiclass racing from the FW GTR cars and the bigger GTR's and I can't say the success rate of finishing a race without stupid accidents were any better than the other.

In the 24 hour race I was overtaking 2 FWD GTR's and it seemed pretty simple at the time, they both left me enough room to overtake, but when I came to overtake the second one he must only have been taking an extremely wide line to get a better exit from the corner, which is fine, but from my angle it didn't look that way, anyway, caused an accident and we both lost a good amount of time. I can admit it was probarly my fault for not waiting behind for the age it takes them to get through a few corners, but if you are given a gap that appears to be for your car to go through you will allways take it.

I just think it wont be for the benefit of the series, there will be so many unhappy teams at being knocked off by a car in the other class, it will affect the overall results and luck will play a huge part in each race.

I wouldn't mind the slowed down GTR's to be honest as I think Appie pointed out they will only be slower on the straights, so being behind a GT2 car on a corner will lose you far less time than the FWD GTR.

I couldn't agree more. The restricted GTR's can at least allmost keep up at the corners, which will probably give much tighter racing in both classes (the big gtr's ain't the only car loosing time when overtaking a mGTR).

Also, i don't see any huge problem in seeing the restricted gtr's from a GTR car. This is something you just notice when you a aproach a GT2, as it's quite much slower on the straights. I usually keep an eye on the map from time to time ("learnt" this from LFS GT) as well, where you quite easily see which type of car you are catching, before you can visually see it.

Put a different colour on the sunstrip or the wing, and it should be ok for the spectators?

I don't think i was the only one getting tired of those FWD GTR cars during the last LFS GT seasons

Definetly restricted GTRs. The small FWDs IMO get lost on a big track like Aston Grand Prix, it's just so wide. The correct place for the small GTRs are shorter tracks and sprint races. Something like WTCC. And you don't see WTCC cars doing 24 hour races (sadly )