High standards in what? There's plenty of ways that Forza2 is "better" than LFS. If I want to drive a real car (BF1/RAC/MRT5 aside) on a real track, the LFS doesn't meet my high standards. If I want to customize the car, LFS doesn't meet my high standards. If I want a single player "campaign", LFS doesn't meet my high standards. You're acting ignorant of all of these standards. An elitist attitude does not mean that it actually IS better in every sense of the word, or even any.

It's your opinion you'll probably bring up. However it was you who tried to impose your elitist opinion onto me with your first post here. You obviously don't give a rat's ass that I (and others) like Forza2. Forza2 sucks, end of story, according to you.

Also your so called high standards are ignorance. Hopefully you'll understand there's more than one way to have fun. Ultra-realism vs. driving a Z06 around the 'ring? I'd hate to have to choose just one.

Stop trolling.

The "real" cars you mention, both in LFS and Forza, are merely digital representations of their real life counterparts, and therefore by definition are not real, they are virtual. If you want to drive a real car, there's only one place to do it, and it's not sitting in front of a computer/TV. No one is going to plop down $200,000 for a "real" Ferrari in a video game. In the virtual world, the car might as well be a rectangular prism with wheels and it really wouldn't matter, it's no less similar to a real life car than the "real" cars in games.

Tracks are a slightly different story. Again, nothing beats actually being there, but in the virtual world, you can get close enough to a virtual copy of the real track. There may be some bumps and other nuiances that are different, but the overall feel of the track can be similar. However, why copy someone else's work in real life when you have the freedom to express your own creativity in track making? Sure, there are some very nice tracks in real life with some very extensive history, but that history does not follow the track into the virtual world. You could say, "This guy crashed on this corner here, or made a great pass there," but those things happened in real life, not in the virtual world. It's just another track, every bit as good or bad as a fictional one.

Car customization has two aspects: appearance and performance. To some extent, LFS already allows you to do the former with skins in much the same way as Forza 2. Then there are parts-based appearance modifications, such as body kits. As I'm sure you're aware, such things only add weight and slow the car down, so there's no point in having them in a racing sim. Then there are performance mods. In real life, people spend a lot of money on their cars to stay competative. In sim racing, this is completely unnecessary. If the cars are already well-balanced, why unbalance them with performance mods? Ultimately everyone will use the same mods and you're right back to where you started. I'm speaking strictly about online racing of course. In offline racing, performance mods are simply a difficulty adjustment.

As for single player campaigns, why would you want those when you can race in an online league against real people and get real recognition?

Quote from Forbin :

High standards don't make me ignorant.

But making unfounded statements, like you have in this thread, does....:dunce:

Quote from Forbin :

Then there are parts-based appearance modifications, such as body kits. As I'm sure you're aware, such things only add weight and slow the car down, so there's no point in having them in a racing sim.

there is a real purpose to body kits (real ones used in auto racing, not the cheap plastic ones ricers use), and it is to increase aerodynamic efficiency (lower CoD), lower lift and/or increase downforce. so actually, there is a point in having them in a racing sim.

again, not the cheap kits used on POS "tuners", but the real kits used in racing applications.

Forbin - while your points may well be valid, in the end it is your own opinion. If somebody wants a wheel for Forza 2 and LFS, either be helpful, or don't post at all. The OP didn't start this thread to debate games. Thanks.

Quote from pik_d :

Problem solved, I figured out how to get the XBCD+ drivers working, with the axis split. No wheel for me, at least not until I'm done with college and actually have space for it.

...I used a gamepad for over two years with a controller/gamepad setup and found it impossible after patchW:shrugfor some reason the change from the lower controller sample rate pre patch W, to sampling input at same speed as physics engine)...just doesnt work anymore...too damn sensitive and twitcy. Let me know how you get on anyway mate

Personally I wouldn't bother with the MS wheel. I have owned one. The build quality is shocking, the force feedback is weak, and the price is extorsionate. However, if you want a FF 360 wheel its your only choice.

Also, don't hold out much hope for Vista drivers for it, those have been rumoured to be released for an age now..

i've got the MS wheel in addition to a g25. while the build quality isn't the same as the g25, it isn't bad either...about on par with other logitech wheels i've either owned (df ex), or used (dfp, momo). FFB on it is more than adequate at well.

but apparently YMMV

Quote from glyphon :

i've got the MS wheel in addition to a g25. while the build quality isn't the same as the g25, it isn't bad either...about on par with other logitech wheels i've either owned (df ex), or used (dfp, momo). FFB on it is more than adequate at well.

but apparently YMMV

I respect your opinion. What really annoyed me is that I have owned an old MS Sidewinder wheel before I got my G25. That wheel had none of the build quality issues that the 360 one does (just look up 'steering column slop' in youtube), and the force feedback was much stronger and more refined. Indeed, it is still in good working order now, only poor driver support from MS caused me to switch to G25.

Now, if MS could make an excellent wheel like the Sidewinder why could they not produce a new wheel to at least as good a standard? IMHO the quality has taken a dramatic step backwards.

To add insult to injury, the price really is ludicrous, when you consider that a momo or dfp can be obtained for at least £30 less than the £90 retail price.

Also, check out AutoSimSports review. It raises most of the points I have. I honestly cannot recommend this wheel to a prospective buyer, and I am not the type to bash a product unnecessarily.

Quote from CSU1 :

...I used a gamepad for over two years with a controller/gamepad setup and found it impossible after patchW(for some reason the change from the lower controller sample rate pre patch W, to sampling input at same speed as physics engine)...just doesnt work anymore...too damn sensitive and twitcy. Let me know how you get on anyway mate

Yeah, it does seem really really sensative. I havn't figured out how to tone that down. What gamepad were you using?

Origamiboy,

Would you guess that the FFB is bad to someone who hasn't used another wheel? Would it be worth the price to bank on the fact that it'll seem great simply because I haven't used a G25?

I'm almost content to not have a wheel for Forza2, it's really not the reason I want one. But at the same time it seems like a waste to get a wheel that only one of these two games can use. I have a feeling I'll have buyers remorse whenever I want to play Forza2. Of course when I'm playing LFS, it'll be that much better...

ah, i have heard of the steering wheel slop issue before with the 360 wheel. that seems to be a hit or miss issue though. some wheels have it, and others don't. i've heard of people going returning 2-3 wheels before getting a good one. and while the FFB isn't as the g25, i find it has enough strenght to get the job done. and there is the price, but when you are the only FFB game in town, you get to dictate the prices

still, good points to bring up.

Quote from pik_d :

Yeah, it does seem really really sensative. I havn't figured out how to tone that down. What gamepad were you using?

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=254023#post254023

Quote from CSU1 :

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=254023#post254023

Which drivers caused lag? I'm using XBCD+ 4.0.0.however many 0's, and I've noticed a few second delay when hitting Shift+F4 that isn't there without the pad. If this is indicative of it also causing lag in online play, the this pad is useless to me on my PC.

I've gotten used to the 360 controller from having a PS2 and using a Logitech Rumblepad2, it really isn't that bad.

Quote from pik_d :

Yeah, it does seem really really sensative. I havn't figured out how to tone that down. What gamepad were you using?

Origamiboy,

Would you guess that the FFB is bad to someone who hasn't used another wheel? Would it be worth the price to bank on the fact that it'll seem great simply because I haven't used a G25?

I'm almost content to not have a wheel for Forza2, it's really not the reason I want one. But at the same time it seems like a waste to get a wheel that only one of these two games can use. I have a feeling I'll have buyers remorse whenever I want to play Forza2.

If you have not used a FF wheel before, then the chances are you will be impressed to an extent. However, if I were you I'd test it out myself in the store/at a friends before buying.

Also, the only game in which there will be a real benefit is forza 2 at the moment, and it seems that there are no serious 'sims' due out in the near future for the 360, besides the likes of PGR4, which is pure arcade. I remember that TDU was promised a FF patch that never arrived.

Finally, if you do buy the 360 wheel, DO NOT have a go on a DFP/Momo/Sidewinder etc or else the buyers remorse will really kick in!

according to the offical page, TDU is fully FFB supported. can't comment more than that, as the only game i've tried with the wheel is forza 2.

also, an annoying thing about the wheel. it comes with PGR3. that's great an all for those that don't have PGR3, but really, i think the majority of people interested in the wheel have PGR3. I'd rather the wheel be $30 cheaper than to get a duplicate copy of a game.