Nope, it was at the 2002 Malaysian GP and it was definately Bernoldi. Schumacher was coming back through the field after an accident on lap 1 and went to pass Bernoldi for position only to have it taken straight back off him again at the next corner. And before you think I've again confused it again with Verstappen and got the year wrong, I am aware that Jos did feature very well in the previous year's Malaysian GP but never overtook Schumacher (had a battle with Hakkinen though if I recall correctly).
Also Verstappen wasn't laid off in favour of Bernoldi, they were team-mates in 2001, it was Frentzen who took his place a year later.
Hey guys dont forget the guy from hungary which we can say was the wors ever no? Baumgartner Zsolt... (btw he scored points for jordan,coz every else crashed ^^)
He would have under the current points system though. And to be fair to him, he may not have scored any points but his team-mates only scored a total of 3 when partnered with Bernoldi, he was hardly in the best cars during his 18 months of F1. Anyway, yes, definately helped into F1 due to his Red Bull backing but still not exactly crap, just very average (in F1 terms).
Well, i'll agree with you there, we can both agree he wasn't going to cut it, but I just think he was a bit of an example of someone who was average as you say. There's more 'average' guys who could tear up the field. What about Ralf Schumacher? In many peoples eyes, he sucks. Which he does. But he still has race wins under his belt.
Yeah definately. Funny thing is if you compare a driver like Ralf's first few seasons to one of the newer guys these days (Rosberg is a great example), then they don't seem as impressive as we make them out to be. Anyone who followed Ralf's season back in 1999 could be forgiven for thinking they were looking at a future world champion!
The vast majority of drivers in karts come from middle-class families. Their parents are usually not wealthy businessmen who can hook up their kids with $100,000 worth of sponsorship money so they can race in Formula Ford. Only the truly rich (I'm talking about people who earn quarter-million or more per year) can afford to do what you describe: get family based sponsorship deals or buy their way into Formula Ford or F3.
No-one in their right mind, even relatives and family friends, are going to cash out $300,000 so that their nephew can do a season in second-tier F3 in the vague hopes of getting somewhere in 10 years time.
Grave exaggeration. He was the South American champion, and came second in the world championship twice. Even in a mediocre kart, he'd do alright.
You seem to imply that because F1 drivers (or anyone in high-level motorsport) are drawn mainly from a relatively small pool of better-off drivers, that they somehow cannot be compared with average driving talents.
Fact is, talent has no relationship to money. What you've got is a random sample of the population who happen to have the luck/money to get into motorsport. The best drivers among this random sample can be regarded representative of the best drivers of the general populace.
Once you can get steady sponsorship in Formula Ford or F3, the chances of moving up are pretty high, as long as your race results are good, and your current sponsors are getting their investment's worth in return. I struggle to think of any driver who has gone from Formula Ford to F3, or from F3 to GP2/F3000 without achieving good results in the lower formulae. Some people are disadvantaged by older cars, etc., but those differences aren't great from what I've seen (in same-make series), and can be whittled down by good talent.
It was quite a while ago now but I remember a comment by someone in F1 (can't recall whom - might have been murray walker). That the difference between the pole sitter and the guy sitting at the back of the grid (around 6.5-7 seconds in those days) was 5 seconds car and 1.5-2 seconds driver. In the grand scheme of things being 2 seconds a lap off the fastest driver in the fastest cars in the world, (that go around tracks that is), is an irrelevant difference. Put any one of us here in one of those cars and I'm betting we wouldn't be within 60 seconds.
Within a few laps we'd get within 10-15 seconds I think, assuming we drove sensibly and didn't try to blitz the lap record on the outlap (and therefore crash = epic fail). Driving an F1 car, or a rally car or a road car so far from "the limit" isn't hard or scary.
Within about 100 laps I think most here would be well within 10 seconds, the better few getting close to 5 seconds.
I think intrepid has a very valid point. I knew a guy who used to race 600s in low level club races. His racing costs were around £6-7,000 a year (back in the early nineties that is) and he used to have to make tyres last several races to acheive that low buget level. No surprises that he was from a relatively well to do family and was a lawer. Motor racing costs at every level, and in terms of the average salary it costs way too much for 99% of people to even consider getting involved in, (even just for fun).
However, there is one other thing to consider to the argument and that is will. Are Schumacher/Senna, Maradonna/Pele, Usain Bolt, Valentino Rossi etc all the best ever? Well all that can be said for certain is that they are (were) the best of a select few that even cared to get involved in their respective sports never mind the even smaller pool that had the true opportunities required other than tallent that you need to get to the top of the game to even be compared. Is 9.72 the fastest any human can run 100m ? who knows what joe blogs or fred smith might have acheived if they had decided to take up sprinting as a sport. Not all the fastest running kids in the playground are interested at being the fastest running kid on the track, most have other priorities. The probability that there are better drivers/footballers/sprinters etc out there than the ones we currently call "the best" is 100%. It's a certainty. They just never got involved.
Well I've never driven anything even a fraction as fast, (car wise anyway), so I'll accept your greater experience in that respect. But I would say that what you say would only be true for those that can over come the "fear" factor. You may say it's not that scary but for the average joe I would expect it to be an extremely scary experience. I was thinking more along those lines when I stated 60 seconds really.
We all play LFS, and so have an understanding, however basic, of car control, speed, braking etc. The fear factor isn't a problem, because you are in control. It actually seems quite gently on board.
The other week I stood on the pitwall at Mallory to watch the bike engined single seaters do their qualifying - never again. Far too scary and dangerous. I asked if I was that fast when I went past, and was told that yes I was. FECK! In car it feels slow, gentle and serene, with plenty of time to think. Even in my first spring it didn't feel that fast...
Plus, it's not your car (so it won't cost you if you crash it. Probably), and you know it's quite possibly the safest car in the world. I'd be much more worried driving a hatchback at 120mph or a Ginetta at 140 than an F1 car at 190mph.
I just remembered an article I read of a motor journalist getting the opportunity to ride what was then the new Cagiva 500cc race bike. He had about 5 laps on it and after taking the first lap very slowly he gradually built up the pace over the next 3 laps and actually stated that the bike was incredibly easy to ride, (at speeds that were way above what any production 1000cc bike would have managed), but when on the last lap he then actually tried to keeping the throttle open full past 3/4 revs to the red line the bike came up so quick it nearly headbutted him off the back, he rolled off the throttle got the front down by which time he was already past his previous brake marker going much faster than he had till then. Hitting the brakes in near panic nearly threw him over the front but killed his speed so that he made the corner doing 20mph more than he had previously. It was at that point that he realised just how talented 500cc racers were at the time.
Interesting comment. I'd like to think you're right, but there is no way to tell with any certainty.
I remember RAF's S/L Bagnall having a go in a Williams car last year. That's a jet fighter pilot with the required physical and mental attributes. In a about a dozen laps, he did 1:25s around Silverstone National in wet conditions (the shorter F3 layout, not the GP layout). He drove a BMW sedan around the track with Alex Wurz and had a go in a F3 car beforehand. F1 drivers do the full GP layout in around that time time. So not very fast, even for someone accustomed to the speed and G-forces.
Steve Sutcliffe drove the Honda F1 car last year too. If my info is correct, Sutcliffe has several years of touring car racing experience under his belt. He did slightly faster than Honda's test driver, James Rossiter. Impressive.
Then there is Hamster's effort in a Renault R26. He looked pretty incompetent. But even so, he's had a lot of experience driving fast cars.
I think it's just too variable to even make a generalised comment.
A lot of that can be put down to dramatic/comedic effect and crafty camera work and editing - only showing all the times he locked up or spun out, etc even when in the FR.
A fat greek reporter that does the coverage of F1 races here was put through the same deal as Hammond with a bunch of other reporters a year or two ago at some Renault test facility and didn't do that bad as they showed Hammond do. He did have alot of self-sarcasm though about his discomfort inside the car since he really had to squeeze himself in there. As far as I remember he didn't spin out or even lock up violently and actually did the top speed on the straight's speed trap for the day or something like that.
To lock up an F1 wheel shows a fair bit of effort - you won't do that if you fannying about being scared! I'd say Hamster probably did alright in real life. But that wouldn't make good TV.
Really - why do people think single seaters or F1 cars are hard to drive?
Yup, it's harder to lock one wheel up than people thinks, considering you have to apply over 50kg of force to brake relatively hard (some braking points before turns require drivers to apply around 100kg of force, right from their shoe), however in the heat of a tight race it gets harder to not to do it while pushing at the limit. So from what you lot have said, it's much more possible that he was just making the show but in truth he wasn't bad at it at all.
I guess the answer to this one would lie on one of those favorite thoughts of many people, that since everyone who drives single seater cars competitively are awesomely good drivers, thus you need to be really good in order to be able to drive one of those.
Gotta love the myths, huh?
Back on topic:
There's no doubt Shoemaker is/has been an awesome driver, but on the other side he has had no true continued competition (most drivers with WDC title during the Schumi era came and went so fast it was annoying) from any other top class driver (Senna died, Hill/Villeneuve/Hakkinen retired and so on) until somehow he was beaten up twice by a certain spaniard.
His style of driving, in my most humble opinion, was extremely conditioned by the brand of tyres Ferrari was using at the time (as far as I remember, Bridgestone), which allowed for slightly more constant grip on difficult situations (without sliding) but under extreme conditions were wilder and more unpredictable than, for example, the Michelin ones, that liked to slide somewhat more. That made him look like he was on the limit all the time but without crossing the thin line that separates that from having an accident, since he always knew where the car's limit was.
Whatever some people might say about him, he was a really nice driver to watch race, even if after so many years winning you might get a little bit bored, but still he managed to pull some truly awesome tricks out of nowhere.
To be fair though, in 05 hes car was a mid field runner and was no better then Williams or Toyota that year(yet he out scored Fisi and Montoya who Vastly surpiror cars, allthough to be fair Montoya was injured for a few races).
In 06 the car started horribly and didn't really start kicking in till the 1st european leg.
Woah, looks like I started something with the comment about less talented drivers with money :P I was of course meaning they are still very talented, but perhaps less than some other drivers, and partly able to make it to F1 due to putting up a whole bunch of money to race for a team.
never EVER would that happen, to be within 10 seconds of an F1 drivers time would be AMAZING. Most people could manage about 1 lap in an F1 car before they were KNACKERED.
Most people would be around 5 seconds off in a KF1 kart, and manage about 5 laps.
I drive regularly, the 1st time i drove a KF1 I was 2 seconds off and shattered within 10 laps. I'd be happy to be within 20 seconds on my 1st test, before i got too tired to drive (after about 2 laps)
(btw he scored points for jordan,coz every else crashed ^^)