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Real life ride height adjustments
(61 posts, started )
Tristan, if I've not misread anything you've said about your car's handling issues, it's a medium to high speed oversteer issue.

The fact is, rake is a VERY significant contributor to aero balance. Given all else equal and the front end untouched, a small increase in rear ride height of say 5mm would actually generate increases in L/D ratio and front percentage by as much as a few % of difference (very significant). This is based on both CFD and wind-tunnel studies I've seen so far. In fact, increased rake (nose down attitude) is standard procedure for increasing aero efficiency and understeer elimination, especially among front downforce limited cars such as GTs.

Fact of the matter is that with increased front rake the center of pressure actually shifts forward since the angle of both the diffuser and the bottom are increased whilst actually accelerating the front incoming air a bit more. This effectively leads to higher peak airflow velocities, but also allows the air to diffuse and thus decelerate earlier. Hence increased efficiency and front percentage.

In your case , the fact of the matter is that there are still some unknowns I'll like to quantify. Since you said that cranking the rear wings to the max didn't work, I'm also wondering if you have cranked it up TOO much. Having a wing at max angle is usually inefficient since L/D ratio will be compromised. There is also the matter of how airflow over your rear wing is REALLY behaving. Maybe you should get some wool tuffs and a stick on camera or even spread some wax and see how airflow affects them to see what the rear wing is actually doing? Could it be that the rear angle is overdone and the wing could be partially stalling?

I understand that ideally you want to lose none of the front grip you currently have. However, whatever you do to the rear will affect the front some way or the other since everything has knock-on effects in a car.

Some more questions include:
1. Do you have issues with rear grip on slow corners as well?
2. Is this problem significant only at higher speeds?

If answer to Q1 is YES, then start with rear suspension stiffnesses. Try lowering rear ARB stiffness. If that fails as you seem to have indicated then try removing it altogether assuming your rear springs aren't too soft (whereby camber change effects dominate over load sensitivity) in the first place. If this works without generating significant understeer whilst solving your oversteer issue, then great, since missing an ARB is less weight. Unless our weight regulations force a minimum weight but then again you now get to choose WHERE to place it...

If Q1 is no and Q2 is yes, then the logical thing to do is of course lower the rear a bit to shift aero balance to the rear. And yes, lowered rear COG on its own helps with rear tire load distribution, but that must also be balanced with your suspension behavior, which unfortunately remains a mystery without too much detailed technical data. If reasonable rake adjustments fails to achieve any significant improvement, then try tweaking the rear ARB a bit or even stiffening the fronts as long as lower speed balance and tire wear aren't significantly compromised. If that fails THEN tweak the front wings down.

But since you said the tire metrics are good, then maybe you are just unused the handling of the vehicle. try adapting to the oversteer you said about and see if it works. If the oversteer is genuinely at non-optimally large levels then start considering tweaks to wing angle.
Quote from tristancliffe :Some books I read say that the rear should be higher than the front as that causes understeer, but mine is already a lot higher, and I want less oversteer.

If the back of your car is higher than the front that means the back of your car is going to be lighter. Which 90% of the time will cause oversteer... Why not drop the rear ride-height (or raise the front)?
Many suggestions have been thrown here, but I do have 1 question:

Is the oversteer issue mostly a transient state e.g. on turn in or on exit? If it is not a steady state issue then the logical place to start looking besides the aero and springs I mentioned are of course the dampers.

I wonder how adjustable your dampers are, but tweaking dampers or even replacing them with ones that provide superior damping curves will help too. A little less rear compression would allow the rear to squat down more quickly, allowing faster load shift to the rear. This assuming you don't have serious bottoming issues. This also allows increased rate of forward rake angle loss, shifting diffuser aero pressure aft.

As you said,you can easily provoke power oversteer out of low speed corner exits. Though fun, this isn't necessarily optimal if winning and breaking lap records are the order of the day. If you have maxed out the amount of rear grip you can get out of the car, then the only choice is to reduce front grip with e.g. stiffer front springs/dampers/ARBs. It's balance, reliability and consistently good pace that wins races in the end.
Quote from nikimere :If the back of your car is higher than the front that means the back of your car is going to be lighter. Which 90% of the time will cause oversteer... Why not drop the rear ride-height (or raise the front)?

The back of my car is heavier. Lowering it will actually transfer more weight to the rear. But the lower ride height should reduce weight transfer laterally.

Quote from Jamexing :Tristan, if I've not misread anything you've said about your car's handling issues, it's a medium to high speed oversteer issue.

Correct
Quote from Jamexing :The fact is, rake is a VERY significant contributor to aero balance. Given all else equal and the front end untouched, a small increase in rear ride height of say 5mm would actually generate increases in L/D ratio and front percentage by as much as a few % of difference (very significant). This is based on both CFD and wind-tunnel studies I've seen so far. In fact, increased rake (nose down attitude) is standard procedure for increasing aero efficiency and understeer elimination, especially among front downforce limited cars such as GTs.

I'm not talking about curing understeer or GT cars. I'm sure you're trying to be helpful and clever, but let's stick to the point shall we?
Quote from Jamexing :Fact of the matter is that with increased front rake the center of pressure actually shifts forward since the angle of both the diffuser and the bottom are increased whilst actually accelerating the front incoming air a bit more. This effectively leads to higher peak airflow velocities, but also allows the air to diffuse and thus decelerate earlier. Hence increased efficiency and front percentage.

Yes, we know all that. I think everyone in this thread understands the principal of underbody aero and diffusers.
Quote from Jamexing :In your case , the fact of the matter is that there are still some unknowns I'll like to quantify. Since you said that cranking the rear wings to the max didn't work, I'm also wondering if you have cranked it up TOO much. Having a wing at max angle is usually inefficient since L/D ratio will be compromised. There is also the matter of how airflow over your rear wing is REALLY behaving. Maybe you should get some wool tuffs and a stick on camera or even spread some wax and see how airflow affects them to see what the rear wing is actually doing? Could it be that the rear angle is overdone and the wing could be partially stalling?

No, the wing angle isn't such that stalling will occur. I'm confident that the degree of oversteer is much less than a stalled wing would cause. Don't have a camera to spare, and no interest in smearing wax over the car and trying to take photos of it or examine it afterwards.

And don't use the word fact or the phrase 'fact of the matter' too often or you look silly.
Quote from Jamexing :I understand that ideally you want to lose none of the front grip you currently have. However, whatever you do to the rear will affect the front some way or the other since everything has knock-on effects in a car.

No shit Sherlock!
Quote from Jamexing :Some more questions include:
1. Do you have issues with rear grip on slow corners as well?
2. Is this problem significant only at higher speeds?

1. Not really, no. Other than power oversteer if I'm brutal on the throttle.
2. Yes.
Quote from Jamexing :If answer to Q1 is YES, then start with rear suspension stiffnesses. Try lowering rear ARB stiffness. If that fails as you seem to have indicated then try removing it altogether assuming your rear springs aren't too soft (whereby camber change effects dominate over load sensitivity) in the first place. If this works without generating significant understeer whilst solving your oversteer issue, then great, since missing an ARB is less weight. Unless our weight regulations force a minimum weight but then again you now get to choose WHERE to place it...

Rear suspension stiffness is pretty damn good. Can't afford to buy lots of springs or the time to test them (changing springs isn't a 5 minute job!). RARB has been fiddled with, but degree of adjustment isn't sufficient to balance it. Don't want to remove it, thanks very much, without the ability to test it - a luxury we rarely have. Positioning ballast in a 1988 F3 car isn't as simple as you seem to think - you've obviously never worked on one.
Quote from Jamexing :If Q1 is no and Q2 is yes, then the logical thing to do is of course lower the rear a bit to shift aero balance to the rear. And yes, lowered rear COG on its own helps with rear tire load distribution, but that must also be balanced with your suspension behavior, which unfortunately remains a mystery without too much detailed technical data. If reasonable rake adjustments fails to achieve any significant improvement, then try tweaking the rear ARB a bit or even stiffening the fronts as long as lower speed balance and tire wear aren't significantly compromised. If that fails THEN tweak the front wings down.

Finally. This is what we're going to do already. So you're a bit late.
Quote from Jamexing :But since you said the tire metrics are good, then maybe you are just unused the handling of the vehicle. try adapting to the oversteer you said about and see if it works. If the oversteer is genuinely at non-optimally large levels then start considering tweaks to wing angle.

I don't mind the oversteer. Oversteer is quite safe, and not THAT slow (compared to understeer). I can cope all day long. But it would be quicker with a little less. It's called fine tuning.
Quote from Jamexing :Many suggestions have been thrown here, but I do have 1 question:

Is the oversteer issue mostly a transient state e.g. on turn in or on exit? If it is not a steady state issue then the logical place to start looking besides the aero and springs I mentioned are of course the dampers.

No such thing as 'steady state' in racing, but it's not particularly on corner entry or exit (as in turn point and exit point).
Quote from Jamexing :I wonder how adjustable your dampers are,

Not at all
Quote from Jamexing : but tweaking dampers or even replacing them with ones that provide superior damping curves will help too.

We don't know the damping curves of our current Bilsteins, and I doubt we'd get useful curves out of the manufacturer for new ones. However, the car shows no other symptoms of poor damper performance.
Quote from Jamexing :A little less rear compression would allow the rear to squat down more quickly, allowing faster load shift to the rear. This assuming you don't have serious bottoming issues. This also allows increased rate of forward rake angle loss, shifting diffuser aero pressure aft.

You are considering the speed, age and ride height of the vehicle aren't you? It's not an F1 car. This car has never ever been near a wing tunnel or a CFD program. Adrian Reynard wasn't even a talented aerodynamicist - it was guessed at the design stage pretty much!
Quote from Jamexing :As you said,you can easily provoke power oversteer out of low speed corner exits. Though fun, this isn't necessarily optimal if winning and breaking lap records are the order of the day.

No shit Sherlock!! Does you mummy treat you like an eejit too, or do you think I'm a complete dunce?
Quote from Jamexing : If you have maxed out the amount of rear grip you can get out of the car, then the only choice is to reduce front grip with e.g. stiffer front springs/dampers/ARBs. It's balance, reliability and consistently good pace that wins races in the end.

I'm nowhere near the 'limits' of the car - a good driver (e.g. Lehto) would be at least 4 seconds per lap quicker even with my setup as now. However, that doesn't preclude changing the setup as I develop as a driver, partly to gain experience of what does what in the real world (yes, some of us actually race, not just try and fit as many fancy words in forum posts like you), and partly to instill a bit more confidence in me as a driver so I can get more out of it.

I'm sure you are great at discussing the theory of things that aren't actually in the real world of club racing, where time, money and parts are a REAL limitation.
Calm down, I am just trying to get as much data as possible to get the optimal solution.

BTW, aero is EXTREMELY relevant even at formula SAE levels. For instance, the Monash University SAE team managed to drop lap times by as much as t1.5 seconds over laps only about 40 seconds long. CFD and wind tunnels are indespensible even at undergraduate, less than 137kph (85mph) racing these days. The wings used are pretty crazy with angles ass much as over 45 degrees, but thanks to CFD and wind tunnel tests stalling isn't an issue. One study I found came up with as much as 1/3 of the cars weight worth of downforce at 50mph. L/D ratios ranged from 3.8-2.2, depending on exact design.

Never underestimate the importance of aero. With an old 80s cars such as yours, it is possible there is much more to be extracted. If a bit of extra confidence is what you are really looking for, then just crank down the front wings since as you said you have no extra springs or adjustable dampers to play with. Start with a bit more understeer, and as you get more and more in tune, tune it back to original levels of front grip. Sounds bad, but that's actually a great way to learn without excessive risk. As you said, you aren't exactly the fastest guy, so I suggest more practice before anything is seriously changed. I started from a heavily understeering lump, which I then learned how to deal with the understeer, then as the the understeer was gradually tweaked out, it converged on mild to moderate oversteer. As skills improve and levle of subtle control increases, what feels like oversteer to the slower guy starts to feel like piggy understeer.

BTW, you're WAY luckier than I was. In my days it was rally driving on palm plantations with little in the way of grip. And funding was even MORE limited in my time so don't start whining at me when daddy is there to buy you some of your stuff. Tarmac stages were the only stages that favored minor understeer. Funding was even more limited for me and I had to search for cost effective means of extracting more speed. Ever had to fabricate a whole new wing you designed yourself, with a rear passenger holding a camera to record wool tuffs? Guess not. No racing harnesses, no runoffs, NOTHING, so consequences were often fatal.
Not so much related but... it's interesting...

Prologue (feel free to skip):
Some time ago with a pal we pondered over the availability of software to properly simulate fluid dynamics, initially in a sort of musing-over-beer about ideas for a speargun body he was making out of carbon fibre and specifically about the best hydrodynamic shape for maximum lateral speed vs maximum horizontal stability. After busting our heads over some of the opensource stuff, Xfoil, OpenFOAM and some others - we gave a shot to Xplane's modelling deal which was close, but not easy/comprehensive enough to get it to actually do high viscosity fluids. So in the long run we ended up "acquiring" this:

http://www.fluent.com/solutions/sports/sports8.htm

(yes, the specific page was selected to get your attention)

Simply put, it's great. Design your 3d model - or have someone design it for you - toss it in there and begin the fun. Last time I checked the latest version it was still available in the land of the torrents.
Quote from xaotik :Not so much related but... it's interesting...

Prologue (feel free to skip):
Some time ago with a pal we pondered over the availability of software to properly simulate fluid dynamics, initially in a sort of musing-over-beer about ideas for a speargun body he was making out of carbon fibre and specifically about the best hydrodynamic shape for maximum lateral speed vs maximum horizontal stability. After busting our heads over some of the opensource stuff, Xfoil, OpenFOAM and some others - we gave a shot to Xplane's modelling deal which was close, but not easy/comprehensive enough to get it to actually do high viscosity fluids. So in the long run we ended up "acquiring" this:

http://www.fluent.com/solutions/sports/sports8.htm

(yes, the specific page was selected to get your attention)

Simply put, it's great. Design your 3d model - or have someone design it for you - toss it in there and begin the fun. Last time I checked the latest version it was still available in the land of the torrents.

That is far from irrelevant if winning is concerned. Even "schoolboys" (Uni students) need aero speciallists on their team if winning is a top priority.
Quote from Jamexing :That is far from irrelevant if winning is concerned.

I'm more referring to the thread topic really.

But none the less, I do concede it's a great tool - especially if coupled with the likes of SolidWorks, it's got basically one-step integration with it, no need for import/export, etc. Currently I'm playing with it and ferring designs for hypothetical recumbent bicycles.
Quote from Jamexing :Calm down, I am just trying to get as much data as possible to get the optimal solution.

BTW, aero is EXTREMELY relevant even at formula SAE levels. For instance, the Monash University SAE team managed to drop lap times by as much as t1.5 seconds over laps only about 40 seconds long. CFD and wind tunnels are indespensible even at undergraduate, less than 137kph (85mph) racing these days. The wings used are pretty crazy with angles ass much as over 45 degrees, but thanks to CFD and wind tunnel tests stalling isn't an issue. One study I found came up with as much as 1/3 of the cars weight worth of downforce at 50mph. L/D ratios ranged from 3.8-2.2, depending on exact design.

Never underestimate the importance of aero. With an old 80s cars such as yours, it is possible there is much more to be extracted. If a bit of extra confidence is what you are really looking for, then just crank down the front wings since as you said you have no extra springs or adjustable dampers to play with. Start with a bit more understeer, and as you get more and more in tune, tune it back to original levels of front grip. Sounds bad, but that's actually a great way to learn without excessive risk. As you said, you aren't exactly the fastest guy, so I suggest more practice before anything is seriously changed. I started from a heavily understeering lump, which I then learned how to deal with the understeer, then as the the understeer was gradually tweaked out, it converged on mild to moderate oversteer. As skills improve and levle of subtle control increases, what feels like oversteer to the slower guy starts to feel like piggy understeer.

BTW, you're WAY luckier than I was. In my days it was rally driving on palm plantations with little in the way of grip. And funding was even MORE limited in my time so don't start whining at me when daddy is there to buy you some of your stuff. Tarmac stages were the only stages that favored minor understeer. Funding was even more limited for me and I had to search for cost effective means of extracting more speed. Ever had to fabricate a whole new wing you designed yourself, with a rear passenger holding a camera to record wool tuffs? Guess not. No racing harnesses, no runoffs, NOTHING, so consequences were often fatal.

I know aero is important, but that's not the point. We have what we have. I'm personally not interested in making new wings or altering the car - it's an 883, and should stay as original as possible in my book (from an automotive restoration point of view).

I don't want to start with understeer - I'd much prefer to start with oversteer and tune it out (and still be pretty quick compared to others in similar cars), than faff around trying to clip apexes.

I've not had to make wings, but it really wouldn't bother me. I am able to to technical drawings, basic aero hand calcs (I can do CFD, but don't have the software [yet] or the 3D model [yet]), and fabricate components.

And as you say, as I get better the oversteer I'm 'struggling' with now will come to feel like understeer, so I don't want to get understeer now only for it to get worse.

Hence... [drum roll] slight rear ride height drop!

Quote from xaotik :Not so much related but... it's interesting...

Prologue (feel free to skip):
Some time ago with a pal we pondered over the availability of software to properly simulate fluid dynamics, initially in a sort of musing-over-beer about ideas for a speargun body he was making out of carbon fibre and specifically about the best hydrodynamic shape for maximum lateral speed vs maximum horizontal stability. After busting our heads over some of the opensource stuff, Xfoil, OpenFOAM and some others - we gave a shot to Xplane's modelling deal which was close, but not easy/comprehensive enough to get it to actually do high viscosity fluids. So in the long run we ended up "acquiring" this:

http://www.fluent.com/solutions/sports/sports8.htm

(yes, the specific page was selected to get your attention)

Simply put, it's great. Design your 3d model - or have someone design it for you - toss it in there and begin the fun. Last time I checked the latest version it was still available in the land of the torrents.

I had hoped that Nuse would attempt a 3D model for me from photos, but I think he stopped after a few heated words were exchanged (understandably). I might have a crack at it over the winter. I used Fluent at University on basic models. Most of it was self-taught (I can't do computer lessons because they make even basic stuff seem complicated, so I ignore the teacher, teach myself, and then teach the bamboozled class!), so I can probably teach myself basic 3D CFD quite easily. But first I need to teach myself 3D modelling, and it's got to be pretty accurate I guess!

Not looking forward to how long analysis times will be, even if my computer is a LOT faster than the uni PCs... gulp.


This thread is pretty much over I think. I've already dropped the ride height, and that's it. The next race (and last of the season) is at Snetterton on the 13/14th October. I'll trim the wings a bit in practice for straight line speed, but that's about it.

Any Americans who come over from the States to here periodically fancy bringing me a set of corner weight scales? The weak dollar means they'd be a steal!
Tristan, just buy them with canadian dollars, you'd pay even less.
Quote from tristancliffe :I think everyone in this thread understands the principal of underbody aero and diffusers.

Let's not get carried away...

Real life ride height adjustments
(61 posts, started )
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