I'd like to withdraw all laps by team SK, as we cutted too much. Please delete our laptimes from Q1.
Hello,
Even if my time is bad, i cut
so delete my lap time too.
Besides, i just want to say than a layout would be interesting during qualify. And, i think during the race, nobody will cut because it will create too many damage on the car. So race will be without cutting it s sure.
Even if my time is bad, i cut
so delete my lap time too.Besides, i just want to say than a layout would be interesting during qualify. And, i think during the race, nobody will cut because it will create too many damage on the car. So race will be without cutting it s sure.
why are you so sure for race? 4 wheels on sand are also cutting....
i actually meant to do that at the top of the page. u might missed that
no matter, joe said it again.Intentionally cutting the left apex of the oval chicane with 4 wheels off the track like in those pictures is not allowed (still need 2 wheels on curb to be 'ok'). Though, if a driver runs off into the sand on the right that is fine, because everyone will experience the car being bumped to the right from the high curbing or a mistake. Though, do not drive on the sand just because it is ok to do, it is only a safe runoff area incase of a mistake with braking, heavy fuel load, or too fast of speed.
Last season MoE discussed a layout for the track too, and it was a good decision not to use one. AFAIK, there will be no layout, far too dangerous. We trust the drivers/teams will not deliberately cut these chicanes. KY GP is the only track to have a big cutting problem anyways... so it will be over soon.
Last season MoE discussed a layout for the track too, and it was a good decision not to use one. AFAIK, there will be no layout, far too dangerous. We trust the drivers/teams will not deliberately cut these chicanes. KY GP is the only track to have a big cutting problem anyways... so it will be over soon
.If you cut unintentionally and know you did it, then you shall slow down by significantly lowering the throttle or not doing a fast lap.
CP: if you cut, you cut. Doesn't matter if it is intentional or not, if you gain an advantage you pay the price. Quite simple.
As you might have noticed, SK went forward and asked for their laps to be deleted because of cutting, which I applaud. If we have to take the top 10 out of the results, so be it. It's not our problem if in the end we have GT1 cars starting behind GT2 cars and don't come complaining when this causes trouble at the start, either.
As you might have noticed, SK went forward and asked for their laps to be deleted because of cutting, which I applaud. If we have to take the top 10 out of the results, so be it. It's not our problem if in the end we have GT1 cars starting behind GT2 cars and don't come complaining when this causes trouble at the start, either.
OK but you didn't even give us the chance to report our fastest clean lap like others. That is what I was talking about. But nevermind, Mot3c will try again on Friday. We support the idea of little cones at the chicane.
Well, you had the misfortune of sitting on pole. I made it clear that cutting is not allowed before quali started. The opportunity to report themselves is given since it saves us time while at the same time still being fair to all others since a non-cut lap will be accepted in such cases. Would you really have come forward with the statement it was a cut lap? Except for SK, so far no one has done so and I do not expect your team and SK to be only ones that did cut the fast chicane and/or the last chicane.
I made it clear that cutting is not allowed before quali started. The opportunity to report themselves is given since it saves us time while at the same time still being fair to all others since a non-cut lap will be accepted in such cases. Would you really have come forward with the statement it was a cut lap? Except for SK, so far no one has done so and I do not expect your team and SK to be only ones that did cut the fast chicane and/or the last chicane.Just to be really sure what's allowed and what's not:
This is a quite usual line for the fzr, and if you check the black rubber marks, it looks like quite natural for the track as well.
The attached pic is completely hlvc valid, but i just reckon someone saying two wheels on the track was the counting rule.
http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/7767/chcutnt0.jpg
http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/1716/chcut2lv0.jpg
This is a quite usual line for the fzr, and if you check the black rubber marks, it looks like quite natural for the track as well.
The attached pic is completely hlvc valid, but i just reckon someone saying two wheels on the track was the counting rule.
http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/7767/chcutnt0.jpg
http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/1716/chcut2lv0.jpg
Your wheels are not on the curbs so I guess that it's invalid.
If the patches on the outside of curbs aren't regarded as part of the track (while they are still HLVC valid), then what about the green patches on Blackwood and Aston? And what about the tarmac outside of the white lines (Aston)? All of this is HLVC valid, but if MoE organizers sees it otherwise, then please clarify.
Before any final decision falls, i really wanna tell about how i feel about this whole case.
When we started the preparations for this moe season, there were lots of things to test out. An important thing for us at f1rst racing was, among many other things, the durability of the suspension, especially for this race. Some of us has been hotlapping a bit, where we got used to the hlvc restrictions. These also felt very natural, at least for me, except that last turn.
Point is, that whenever you are sitting in a race car it's the fastest way around the track which counts. It's just the nature of racing, and some tracks even "invites" you to cut. There is so many tracks out there which has places with opportunities to cut and earn time on it, and it still is the natural way of driving the track.
I'll give you an example:
http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/6520/curb2om6.jpg
The pic above is from an international race in Italy. The curb here is really not made for driving over it, and definately not good for the frame of the kart, but who cares? It's the fastest way of driving around there!
Same track, taken from this year:
http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/6461/curb3zy6.jpg
This chickane is where fzr has it's advantage over the xrr, cause the XR simply can't drive over there without getting damage. On the otehr side, the cornering speeds of the XRR is slightly higher over the whole track than the fzr because of the new weight penalties, where the XR has it's advantage.
Why take the chance from FZR away, when even the devs made this corner hlvc valid with driving over the speed bumps?
I've been practising with several FZR teams, cyber, n!, cp, zwr, and all of them has been practising with hlvc valid cutting, because it was allowed initially by the game and the devs itself!
The disadvantage with the XRR here is something the current drivers of it should have thought about before choosing their car. It's at least definately something we FZR drivers took into account.
Also, remember that it is a risk to take to drive over there, but that's also the only way we actually could give the xrr's any competition.
When we started the preparations for this moe season, there were lots of things to test out. An important thing for us at f1rst racing was, among many other things, the durability of the suspension, especially for this race. Some of us has been hotlapping a bit, where we got used to the hlvc restrictions. These also felt very natural, at least for me, except that last turn.
Point is, that whenever you are sitting in a race car it's the fastest way around the track which counts. It's just the nature of racing, and some tracks even "invites" you to cut. There is so many tracks out there which has places with opportunities to cut and earn time on it, and it still is the natural way of driving the track.
I'll give you an example:
http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/6520/curb2om6.jpg
The pic above is from an international race in Italy. The curb here is really not made for driving over it, and definately not good for the frame of the kart, but who cares? It's the fastest way of driving around there!
Same track, taken from this year:
http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/6461/curb3zy6.jpg
This chickane is where fzr has it's advantage over the xrr, cause the XR simply can't drive over there without getting damage. On the otehr side, the cornering speeds of the XRR is slightly higher over the whole track than the fzr because of the new weight penalties, where the XR has it's advantage.
Why take the chance from FZR away, when even the devs made this corner hlvc valid with driving over the speed bumps?
I've been practising with several FZR teams, cyber, n!, cp, zwr, and all of them has been practising with hlvc valid cutting, because it was allowed initially by the game and the devs itself!
The disadvantage with the XRR here is something the current drivers of it should have thought about before choosing their car. It's at least definately something we FZR drivers took into account.
Also, remember that it is a risk to take to drive over there, but that's also the only way we actually could give the xrr's any competition.
Regarding your first post: no, it's not valid. The curb is the checkered part, the green area is not curb anymore. If you check the tire marks, which you mentioned, you will realise they are over the curb, not next to it, with quite a substantial amount still being on the tarmac. Drive that line and you're fine.
Regarding the pictures in your second post: both times there are at least two wheels on (or in the air over) the curb, so these would be valid.
For two years, the FZR was head over heels ahead of the XRR and now it for once is a little different (which we have not even seen substantial evidence over a race distance yet) and you start complaining? Quite comical.
Regarding the pictures in your second post: both times there are at least two wheels on (or in the air over) the curb, so these would be valid.
For two years, the FZR was head over heels ahead of the XRR and now it for once is a little different (which we have not even seen substantial evidence over a race distance yet) and you start complaining? Quite comical.
4 wheels in the sand and you gain two tenths? The XRR loses about 4+ mph during the sand, how will it give you two tenths?
I totaly agree with not cutting on quali because of the big gain in time and what it does for the race start as in who gets pole but like alot of other have said that corner is so fast you need to be so perfect on the line you take and on top of all that now you are wanting us to also concentrate on not cutting that even if we dident mean to like the car getting out of shape going into it and out of it? Apart from that there is nothing to gain by cutting in the race because of the damage it causes...You will spend more time in the pits getting repaired because of driving over the chicane than it does actually cutting it. I think it would be silly to have penaultys for in the race were it does cost you going over the chicane in a long run. Just my thoughts
The XRR is like a boundy on the cutting, so many time's i've barely scraped thet rumble strips and had the front end of the car thrown in a completely differnt direction with alot of damage being added on. If you only cut the chicane by as much as Jonesy was trying then it will most likely end up like it did, but if you cut in the XRR like the FZRs do, it works just as good and sometimes with little above no damage on the suspension.
After the qualifying and seeing some of the cutting I drove some hotlaps with cutting as much as I could, 47.06 was the best FZR last sector and I managed a 47.1x in the XRR but this was extreme cutting. This is quite useless info now though, I was only using 20kg balast, not that it made much differnce though.
Btw Niki, cutting the gravel is completely differnt than the chicane, the gravel is obviously there to slow you down and disadvantage you if you go through it, cutting the rumble strips doesn't even slow a car down.
Still have to wait untill the Friday qualifying though and this isn't a dig, but if laps like Clownpaints and other cuts (intentional are not) then I can't see everyone else trying to get a 5tenth better split in order to beat the crazy cutters.
Your pictures show just what we've been asking. The vehicle is still legal because it is staying over the curbing. It isn't cutting an apex COMPLETELY like we have seen some drivers do with KYGP. The left-hand entry is still technically a corner, it isn't something you just drive straight through.
The devs didn't 'allow' this at all. The devs only make HLVC zones that are very basic in regards to just surface type (eg tarmac yes, grass no). LFS doesn't have a flag system, nor does it have 100% perfected HLVC zones for all its tracks. There are plenty of areas people will deliberately cut in hotlapping... it's just a matter of what the devs need to FIX. And seeing that Eric hasn't done one thing other than the BF1 for nearly 2 years now, doesn't mean it isn't something he plans to fix, and that it is ok to blatantly cut. Besides, Kyoto has to be the one track that needs the most HLVC improvements (several chicanes can be cut far too deep, people can cut on the oval apron, first corner is cuttable). Not to mention, that damage with the high bumps don't do anything to most cars, and that needs to be fixed too.
That said, we have to do with what we have in LFS, and adjust rules accordingly to not allow any obvious cutting. The oval chicane is not a 'natural' chicane at all, it is just poorly designed. So the obvious and legal route is to not cut the apex completely by driving straight through. You still need to have 2 wheels on the curb, as already stated. We see cutting happen in real motorsports, and stewards have to figure out what is deemed illegal or legal. We know drivers cannot make the chicane perfect every lap in a race and can make mistakes by either cutting too deep, or going too wide on that chicane, but in Qualifying we need to make sure drivers do not attempt anything that will gain an unfair advantage for a faster time. If someone cuts repeatedly in the race however, a penalty could ensue.
If someone cuts in the race there going to be gaining suspension damage anyway and with this track having so many fast sweeping corners it can really ruin your times and tyres. So in saying that I really doubt we will see constant on purpose cutting, unless some nubb'n makes omse uberpwnl0l setup just for cutting the kerbs. 
Okay, and what are you going to offer the XRR teams at the other tracks when the FZR is faster there?? Can the XRR pit while ignoring the speed limit, as thats the only way it can give the FZR any competition?
Qualifying needs someone during or after manually invalidating laps where an advantage is gained by cutting, hopefully drivers knowingly cutting that corner will sportingly lift off and abandon the lap.
The race will be much trickier, i know the XRR only needs to touch the curbing and its in trouble, the FZR doesnt seem to mind it, so the XRR receives automatic punishment it'll carry till the end of the stint, the FZR barely gets a scratch and can carry on doing its usual laps. One carries damage, the other gets away scott free unless the admins penalise you, so whether its intentional or a mistake, the XRR pays a far heavier price than the FZR.
Thats like punishing Ferrari for being faster than Spyker-Ferrari because they are better and can take cerbs better??? I think all this is stupid because at the end of the day the fzr drivers picked the fzr because its a ferrari and not a spyker dont you think?
Hold on, so the point is now that the FZRs should be aloud to cut because they can and they need to in order to beat the supposidly faster XRR's? 
Keith, Paul was simply making statement the same as Chriskarts but the other way around in terms of XRR and FZR. He's not saying that the ferrari (Supposid FZR) should be penalised where its faster, but he's saying that the FZR's shouldn't be cutting so extremely in order to gain time and get away with it.
Keith, Paul was simply making statement the same as Chriskarts but the other way around in terms of XRR and FZR. He's not saying that the ferrari (Supposid FZR) should be penalised where its faster, but he's saying that the FZR's shouldn't be cutting so extremely in order to gain time and get away with it.
Hey, im only replying to how pathetic it is complaining that the FZR needs help, The XRR gets punished whether the admins feel its excessive or otherwise, the FZR gets away scott free unless the admins feel its intentional.
I wasnt the person running in a Ferrari asking the Spyker to be slower so they can be competitive with it!!
I wasnt the person running in a Ferrari asking the Spyker to be slower so they can be competitive with it!!
Allright, i was mainly thinking about the green areas as curbs as well.
Looked like a way for the admins to "take" any advantage from the FZR at first, but it's ok now (as the green part ain't counted as curbs). I've got the rules clarified and i'm gonna do the best out of it
Looked like a way for the admins to "take" any advantage from the FZR at first, but it's ok now (as the green part ain't counted as curbs). I've got the rules clarified and i'm gonna do the best out of it
ok i have here a single player HL + 80kg handicap added. 2.10,64 cut or no cut?
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1st Qualifying 12h of Kyoto - including Quali results
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