Quote from Hyperactive :

In LFS the sound kinda jams or resonates

...

In a car the engine gets louder and more aggressive towards the red line but in LFS it just fades away

The exhaust model in LFS appears to be a ring modulated waveform (short sample) which basically creates all sorts of resonance. Also its anti-clipping mechanism works like a limiting compressor, it just doesn't send out the audio if it crosses a given volume threshold, however it seems to monitor all frequencies - so even if some range is free of too loud audio and one other range does cross the threshold it will stop the audio. What I still think would benefit LFS is a normal compressor before the limiter, that way the quieter sounds (which in this case tend to be lower frequency too) would have a chance instead of causing clipping and getting removed.

If you play with the waveform sample source you can try this, set the sample to a lower pitch and notice how at higher RPM it starts to "disappear" if you don't induce some modulation to it with the "exhaust pulse tone" setting - however setting that too high if your waveform's dynamic range is maxed out will cause clipping and again it'll just fade out and leave you with the wind noises.

The pisser is that the limiter is applied to the sum of sounds, so if any of your higher frequency sounds like gear whine, air intake, etc are dominating a given range then it'll cause clipping all over again and due to the way the limiter appears to work it's bye-bye audio.

If you want the car to sound more sporty, crank the 1.5th and 4.5th engine order sound pressure levels.

This is why cars with twin exhaust 4-2 manifold into mid muffler with 3 chambers sound more sporty than a single pipe with a simpler 1 in, 1 out muffler of the same literage. Both have a neglectable effect on back pressure.


Look at thse two different frequency maps for exhaust system design, one has a single mid muffler, and produced a sanitized lfs style sound, the other, with more red line towards the top of the engine range, produces louder frequency responses accross the engine order speeds. This second, sportier, growlier trait is what lfs is missing.

Quote from Hyperactive :

No I mean that the car sounds like a nascar with a 5-litre engine instead of that 1.8 what it is supposed to be... Kinda like putting a 3litre V12 in UF1 and saying it sounds great. It sounds, but where is the credibility? UF's engine is not a V12, it is a 1-litre I4 but it doesn't sound like one. Or it does but barely.

Oh, ok. Like I said previously too, the crossfaded (sampled) sound in nkp is a bit overkill regarding the engines in the game.

Quote :

Clipping in LFS is very different than what it is in nk pro. In LFS the sound kinda jams or resonates while in nk pro you get those glitch sounds, kinda like backfiring... In nk pro it happens when you are running fraps on the background or play online, at least for me. Probably it has something to do with cpu load, just a guess though..

Yup but I'm still not so sure is there a specific problem with this in nkp (now forgetting the online issues). For me it sounds exactly like that in the vid I posted earlier and all the vids I've seen it sounds the same. If it sounds for you that much different without this clipping issue, care to record a wav? I'd really like to hear it, I have doubts though, even without the clipping, the way the sound is produced is just so weak in a certain way and so distorted.

Quote :

Credibility is that an engine sounds like an engine. It doesn't need to sound like a roaring beast. Car engines have various different tones depending what it is doing. In a car the engine gets louder and more aggressive towards the red line but in LFS it just fades away. The LFS car sounds just are not what the real car sounds are, at least what I hear. Ear is of course not a precise intrument but the difference in sound is amazing when you compare a 3-litre engine in LFS and in real life.

Eh... I kinda thought you would compare LFS and nKp. LFS lacks this "credibility" but nKp is complete opposite if it's "1000x better"? That I don't understand.

LFS' sound engine is pretty awesome to be honest. It pretty much replicates a real car sound given its stats. Using LFS Tweak I input the Audi S1 Group B rally car specs, I can tell you I was on Drag strip for about 30 minutes revving the nuts off my car because it sounds totally like the audi. For those who are wondering why I spent 30 minutes listening to a german car, listen to this:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=hEK7POxpVeE

LFS is perfect!

RACE 07 eventhought be good at some parts.

but that doesn't matter...

Love LFS race with people.......

Quote from deggis :

If it sounds for you that much different without this clipping issue, care to record a wav? I'd really like to hear it, I have doubts though, even without the clipping, the way the sound is produced is just so weak in a certain way and so distorted.

If I try to run fraps on the background it starts clipping . And I don't have a video camera to record anything either so I can't make a video/audio just to show it

Quote from deggis :

Eh... I kinda thought you would compare LFS and nKp. LFS lacks this "credibility" but nKp is complete opposite if it's "1000x better"? That I don't understand.

What I'm trying to say is that for me the cars don't need to sound good per se. The sound is good when it is convincing, it is something you might expect to hear in real life. I took nk pro along only because it uses synth sounds and as such is probably the only good comparison when comparing the audible feedback and sound quality as a whole. Imho nk pro does better job with the few cars with its sound engine, it is just more credible to an untrained ear like mine.

Of course it is a whole lot more challenging to make sound engine for 20+ cars (from UF1 to BF1) instead of 4 formulas but imho none of the LFS cars sound as convincing as the nk pro cars. Credible sound and good feedback from the engine sounds is something where the differences are very big among sims. That's why I say that nk pro sounds 1000x better, mostly because it is more convincing, not because it sounds like a roaring beast. Which it doesn't, nor should.

On the other hand, the LFS engines are kinda clean and "linear" when compared to real engines which may be one reason why the sound side is so clean as well. The sound engine needs to get its data from somewhere and if the data is too clean the outcome is too clean as well. Or it may be just the ring modulations and what-all that cause the sound to ...ehm... be not as good as it could be.

LFS tracks do feel like that were just paved, with glass like surfaces. nkPro is better in this regard as when I drive in that sim I feel like I am driving a car on a real road surface. Its a combination of sound, visuals, sound and physics feedback. LFS for all that is great about it just feels way to smooth and tame. The grainy texture of tarmak and all its little imperfections are missing. That may also be why it some times feels like we are driving on wet pavement as when we do slide its nice and smooth not gritty and full of character.

Quote from xaotik :

Jeff, I have to ask: is there any time that you don't have fraps going when playing a driving game? You seem to have an endless supply of video captures from games.

I do use fraps a lot, even for non-racing games (see below). Part of this is to allow potential players to get an ideal of the look and sound of a racing game. Sometimes I get a request to make a video for the arcade games, where I seem to do better than I do at racing sims (I'm about 4% to 7% slower than the top sim guys depending on the game).

As for the non-racing games, I've been a Tomb Raider fan since the original, a few samples from the latest one, where Lara shows off a lot of her moves:

tragp1.wmv

If you go to my web site, I also have some real race car videos, plus some miscellaneous stuff.

Getting a bit back on topic, I forgot to include this short clip of the sound of a real Caterham (2.3 liter, about 225 hp at the time, rev-limited, later bumped to about 250hp by the guy I sold it to).

cat1.wmv

A 2003 Ferrari F1 race car at Monza:

mnzaf1.wmv

Quote from Hyperactive :

If I try to run fraps on the background it starts clipping . And I don't have a video camera to record anything either so I can't make a video/audio just to show it

I understood that clipping issue with Fraps and that's why I said .wav, you can record that with Wavepad: http://www.nch.com.au/components/wpsetup.exe

As long as I haven't heard how it "really" sounds (without this mythic clipping issue) I can't understand your opinion.

Quote :

What I'm trying to say is that for me the cars don't need to sound good per se. The sound is good when it is convincing, it is something you might expect to hear in real life. I took nk pro along only because it uses synth sounds and as such is probably the only good comparison when comparing the audible feedback and sound quality as a whole. Imho nk pro does better job with the few cars with its sound engine, it is just more credible to an untrained ear like mine.

Yet again all I can say is that "I just don't get it". Maybe we need to agree to disagree then.

Quote :

Of course it is a whole lot more challenging to make sound engine for 20+ cars (from UF1 to BF1) instead of 4 formulas but imho none of the LFS cars sound as convincing as the nk pro cars. Credible sound and good feedback from the engine sounds is something where the differences are very big among sims. That's why I say that nk pro sounds 1000x better, mostly because it is more convincing, not because it sounds like a roaring beast. Which it doesn't, nor should.

I have to wonder at which point this "convincing" sound comes to the picture in nkp when the sound basicly only consists of distorted noise and it has even less difference between high and low rpm pitch than LFS.

And if we go back to the clipping issue, that if it really sounds different in your computer (that .wav/.mp3/whatever would help ) then I guess this debait is pointless but I have doubts about that... if it sounds right for Kunos and for 1 player out of 100, then there's something really fubar somewhere.

Is this any closer what you hear?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=dYb9y0OaWjE

At least the actual video quality is better than in the one I posted previously.

Quote :

On the other hand, the LFS engines are kinda clean and "linear" when compared to real engines which may be one reason why the sound side is so clean as well.

LFS vs. real life... what about nkp vs. real life?

If I've been too unclear, I don't think LFS is perfect in this regard, not even close but imho wins outright nkp's synthed engine. Third competitor in this class is that Todd's sound engine, Scawen could learn something from that...

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

LFS is more an excercise in maths

Even though it's spelled "exercise", that is still probably the most accurate description of the game to date.

[BS]
Mine's the Canadian spelling!
[/BS]

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

Mine's the Canadian spelling!

I thought that was "Exeh?cise"

I have noted bumps that shake car in LFS. Actually there is only two places: south city overall and in aston national reverse in that heavy braking after the long flatout.
I took a look of RACE 07 at youotube. No no no. That car is going on rails with hell of a understeer. And it goes way too fast.
I´m perfectly happy with LFS at the moment. And remember that it´s going to get better all the time.

Quote from tonyonparas :

I have noted bumps that shake car in LFS. Actually there is only two places: south city overall and in aston national reverse in that heavy braking after the long flatout.
I took a look of RACE 07 at youotube. No no no. That car is going on rails with hell of a understeer. And it goes way too fast.
I´m perfectly happy with LFS at the moment. And remember that it´s going to get better all the time.

Turn up your g-force view sliders. The car shakes everywhere! LFS is bumpy everywhere. It's just that the bumps shake you and the car and not affect the car's handling.

I have to agree that LFS lacks the feel of a real car's steering vibration. GTR2 just feels more real in that respect. As for sound, I think LFS leaves a lot to be desired. The excellent Caterham mod for GTR2 not only feels more realistic than LFS, it sounds far better too. The sound of the LX6 reminds me of some games from the '80s! It's just too artificial

Quote from mrodgers :

Turn up your g-force view sliders. The car shakes everywhere! LFS is bumpy everywhere. It's just that the bumps shake you and the car and not affect the car's handling.

Agree. Maybe some tracks could be more bumpy but they arent flat. I can see car vibration (not constant like some other sims). I think the solution may be flexible chassis

The sounds are important too. Suspension and chassis sounds are missing, break squealing and dirt in road too.

Quote from tiagolapa :

Agree. Maybe some tracks could be more bumpy but they arent flat. I can see car vibration (not constant like some other sims).

That's exactly the point - whatever causes your car to bump and jump will cause it lap after lap in LFS because it's there on the track and not an effect that is turned on when you are going at a "high speed".

noo! Im remembering how the flight simulator X flexible chassis killed my computer (3 fps) right now i'm happy with 100+ fps thank you
carry on

If you want it to look a lot more bumpy, turn up the 1g vertical shift and all the 1g shifts in the views option. I'm not sure, but I think they might be set to 0 by default.

Definitely, there needs to be some kind of sound generated when you run over a bump or when the suspension compresses.

but you will not notice that from outside view - the car and whels go smooth, I tried it at BL rumble strips - incar view shakes, but wheels dont. Rumble strips at Aston are much bigger and they affect the car.

What I find missing about bumps is that they are too few and too big (ie. FEGreen, AsNat/His/North/GP near chicane), only bumps I feel alright are at KY Nat when you go off the oval.

the game feels great to me,i hate those screen shakes effects in other games,that is realistic only if you are a camera in the game and not a man

Quote from TRKAC :

the game feels great to me,i hate those screen shakes effects in other games,that is realistic only if you are a camera in the game and not a man

why do you keep bumping 4 year old threads

why people still talking about rfactor 1?..when the RF2 is already out...try it!! it's awesome!! by the way.the RFactor 1 sucks

Quote from rod-kb :

why people still talking about rfactor 1?..when the RF2 is already out...try it!! it's awesome!! by the way.the RFactor 1 sucks

Because its a 4+ year old thread that someone has just bumped

rfactor 2 beta is out not the full release which was originally due in january