Must be from all the hot air that BOVs release.....
Must be from all the hot air that BOVs release.....
I thought an LS1 was 5.7L!
Just because some of them are doesn't mean that all of them are.
illepall Try looking at some GM crate engines online to see what's available....Hmmmmm
If im not mistaken, The topic of the thread has to do with a newBOV sound. I suggest to just lock this post if this stupid shit keeps
going on.
illepall Drift or DIE
any car that dumps compressor pressure isnt a ricer, FOOOOOOL, meh try going ina turbo car in real life,
omg dude, wat a pussy, drift is an art form and was actualy done to get u round a corner faster while loosing traction, i think ur an idiot cause u dont know the meaning of rice, rice is a nissan pulsar with spinner-hubs and neon lights( something that ud drive ) drift is ****ing badass and respect to anyone that can drift good in real life, TRISTIAN i suggest u shut up cause ur loooking reall nooby dude, meh pussy u are
lrdbsi: if you continue to drag every topic down to the purile level of arguing about the merits of drifting, or continuing to insult other members because their opinions differ from your own adolescent opinions, then please don't bother posting on this forum any more.
Can we get back onto topic?
Can we get back onto topic?
Simply a reply, without being dragged down to anyones level in particular...
Yes, I have been in several turbo cars. Some were quite nice, others (mainly the 4WD ones) were dull. A Mitsubishi Lancer Evo round an autocross track was quite good fun though, which surprised me, as they're dull on the road.
As for drifting, the only time I've drifted was when I've made a mistake. I know that losing traction means you go slower round corners except on very tight corners (i.e. quicker to 'drift' round a cone than to drive round one).
You know my opinions on drifting anyway, so I'm not going to be dragged down into ar argument about it. But it's all based on fact.
And finally, I would never even get into a car with neons or spinners, let alone own one. So before trying to stereotype me into a certain catagory, it might be worth reading some of my posts so you can gain an understanding of my views on cars and the science behind them.
There, success. I don't think I was offensive.
Yes, I have been in several turbo cars. Some were quite nice, others (mainly the 4WD ones) were dull. A Mitsubishi Lancer Evo round an autocross track was quite good fun though, which surprised me, as they're dull on the road.
As for drifting, the only time I've drifted was when I've made a mistake. I know that losing traction means you go slower round corners except on very tight corners (i.e. quicker to 'drift' round a cone than to drive round one).
You know my opinions on drifting anyway, so I'm not going to be dragged down into ar argument about it. But it's all based on fact.
And finally, I would never even get into a car with neons or spinners, let alone own one. So before trying to stereotype me into a certain catagory, it might be worth reading some of my posts so you can gain an understanding of my views on cars and the science behind them.
There, success. I don't think I was offensive.
Well, I don't think you could "create" 0.3L more displacement just by porting the heads, manifold, and getting new internals. If you got low-compression pistions, then it might increase the displacement.
EDIT: I meant the 3rd generation ls1
The aussie LS1 is 6.0L :Ptristan is kinda rice.. ;)
really can't stand tristan.. maybe we should just ignore him from now on?
"that car is rice.. that guy is rice... this whole damn UNIVERSE is RICE!"
"that car is rice.. that guy is rice... this whole damn UNIVERSE is RICE!"
Sorry for offtopic again.
Calling drifting as rice is the same as calling racing as rice. Both do count as motorsports even though you might deny it yourself. The actual meaning of word "rice" has really gotten messed up in some peoples heads. I do honestly think gripping requires more skill (in LFS) than drifting, but I find them both entertaining and fun. Having the ability to master them both is what counts.
I know this forum is all anti-drift, and therefore I'm on my way to get my flameproof suit out from my wardrobe
Calling drifting as rice is the same as calling racing as rice. Both do count as motorsports even though you might deny it yourself. The actual meaning of word "rice" has really gotten messed up in some peoples heads. I do honestly think gripping requires more skill (in LFS) than drifting, but I find them both entertaining and fun. Having the ability to master them both is what counts.
I know this forum is all anti-drift, and therefore I'm on my way to get my flameproof suit out from my wardrobe
Drifting is more exciting from my perspective, since both cars on the edge of losing control, drifting cars mainly these days dont have what you in america call bodykits, they have aerokits, I suppose the WRC kit that M-Sport sells for Focus is rice, too?
Pardon me sir, but if you don't like what we do, go do whatever you like to do.
I'm sorry for offtopic >.<
Pardon me sir, but if you don't like what we do, go do whatever you like to do.
I'm sorry for offtopic >.<
... For a forum against drifting, we sure do a lot of drifting off topic hehe (lighten up everyone LOL)
How i imagine it works:
No BOV:
The turbo no longer has driving force, so it slows down very fast, because the air is getting hard to compress:
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/8046/nobov1by.jpg
Open BOV:
The turbo no longer has driving force, so it slows down when it compresses air. Now we have a thing to prevent the turbo from slowing down as fast, and not get damaged, the BOV's spring is set, so the spring just exactly can overcome the force of full boost when driving, and when you close throttle, the pressure gets to high, and the BOV opens. Because the turbo doesn't stop, there is faster pressure-buildup when you open the throttle again. The disadvantage is, that it still has to deal with vacuum on the intake-side.
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/7476/openbov3sh.jpg
Recirculating BOV:
The turbo no longer has driving force, so it slows down. This time it opens and vents out into the intake-side. The air expands, as it is no longer under pressure. Some gets out through the airfilter, and might be heard as a faint whistle, whilst some gets sucked through the turbo again, and recirculated. The turbo no longer have to deal with the vacuum on the intake-side, and will maintain turbinespeed a little longer time, which usually comes in handy when you open the throttle again.
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/2738/recircbov5kc.jpg
My nickle
No BOV:
The turbo no longer has driving force, so it slows down very fast, because the air is getting hard to compress:
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/8046/nobov1by.jpg
Open BOV:
The turbo no longer has driving force, so it slows down when it compresses air. Now we have a thing to prevent the turbo from slowing down as fast, and not get damaged, the BOV's spring is set, so the spring just exactly can overcome the force of full boost when driving, and when you close throttle, the pressure gets to high, and the BOV opens. Because the turbo doesn't stop, there is faster pressure-buildup when you open the throttle again. The disadvantage is, that it still has to deal with vacuum on the intake-side.
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/7476/openbov3sh.jpg
Recirculating BOV:
The turbo no longer has driving force, so it slows down. This time it opens and vents out into the intake-side. The air expands, as it is no longer under pressure. Some gets out through the airfilter, and might be heard as a faint whistle, whilst some gets sucked through the turbo again, and recirculated. The turbo no longer have to deal with the vacuum on the intake-side, and will maintain turbinespeed a little longer time, which usually comes in handy when you open the throttle again.
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/2738/recircbov5kc.jpg
My nickle
And what a good nickle
Thank you
Nice diagrams!
But there's no way in the physical universe that 99% of the air isn't going to escape out the air filter under pressure. Also, if you impose more work on the impeller to recirculate air that's any MORE dense that atmospheric, that's more drag to slow the turbocharger down, not less! Air will take the path of least resistance and therefore would rather escape via the air filter than impose work back on the impeller itself. Plus this effect would temporarily screw up the airflow before the turbo just to top it off, rendering your well R&D CAI flow characteristics futile for a second. For these reasons I submit that atmospheric BOVs maintain the least drag on the turbocharger when transitioning from boost conditions to lower/closed throttle conditions, and provide a quicker transition back the other way.
But there's no way in the physical universe that 99% of the air isn't going to escape out the air filter under pressure. Also, if you impose more work on the impeller to recirculate air that's any MORE dense that atmospheric, that's more drag to slow the turbocharger down, not less! Air will take the path of least resistance and therefore would rather escape via the air filter than impose work back on the impeller itself. Plus this effect would temporarily screw up the airflow before the turbo just to top it off, rendering your well R&D CAI flow characteristics futile for a second. For these reasons I submit that atmospheric BOVs maintain the least drag on the turbocharger when transitioning from boost conditions to lower/closed throttle conditions, and provide a quicker transition back the other way.
I thought "rice" is something to eat... will think about it
Thank you too.
What you say, makes sense if i think about it, because it would reverse the airflow on the intake side for a fraction of a second or more, and then when you step on it, the airflow have to be turned around once more.
If it was me, i'd choose an open BOV, no matter if it was a roadcar or racecar. If i can spare some money, i think that i'd buy one, and put it on my turbo-project car, a Saab 90 from 1985
Just too hear your opinion, which place would be the best to put the intercooler, before the turbo intake, or between the outlet and manifold - aka the pressure side - on the turbo?
My opinion is, that it's best to place it before intake, because if you compress, for example, 20 degrees celcius air to 1 bar, then the temperature would rise to 40 bar, still just an example, may not be the correct temperature-change, then you'll have to take twice the amount of heat/joules out of the air, than if you'd put it before the turbo.
It's just a thing that i've been thinking about.
You have to put the intercooler AFTER the turbo.
air into turbo = 20 degrees C
compression ratio = 2 (so 2 bar output)
air out of turbo = ~150 degrees C (yes, it can be this high, and often higher)
If you cool PRIOR to the turbo, and have an Air_in temp of say 10 degrees, it'll still be 145 on the outlet.
But if you cool after the turbo you'll have air at about 60 degrees going in (depending on air flow, area, colour, material etc of intercooler).
air into turbo = 20 degrees C
compression ratio = 2 (so 2 bar output)
air out of turbo = ~150 degrees C (yes, it can be this high, and often higher)
If you cool PRIOR to the turbo, and have an Air_in temp of say 10 degrees, it'll still be 145 on the outlet.
But if you cool after the turbo you'll have air at about 60 degrees going in (depending on air flow, area, colour, material etc of intercooler).
Tristan beat me again - our modem was down at work some I am way behind now. Oh well.
And yes it must go after the compressor of course. Heat exchange is way more efficient this way since the compressed charge is so hot. Cooling off ambient air with ambient air doesn't really work (assuming air to air intercooler) there is not much temp difference. Intercoolers are for cooling a hot, compressed charge before combustion, as explained by Tristan.
Back to the issue at hand, if what I said WASN'T true, then vehicles in motorsports wouldn't use atmospheric BOVs, plain and simple. I suspect the only reason recircs (which probably don't really do much recircing incidentally) were invented was to make the average passenger car silent. But who cares about that really now....
And yes it must go after the compressor of course. Heat exchange is way more efficient this way since the compressed charge is so hot. Cooling off ambient air with ambient air doesn't really work (assuming air to air intercooler) there is not much temp difference. Intercoolers are for cooling a hot, compressed charge before combustion, as explained by Tristan.
Back to the issue at hand, if what I said WASN'T true, then vehicles in motorsports wouldn't use atmospheric BOVs, plain and simple. I suspect the only reason recircs (which probably don't really do much recircing incidentally) were invented was to make the average passenger car silent. But who cares about that really now....
Can you remind me what your current point is, as I've lost it in the miriad of posts above
UH ok.
I think you're just mad that I am right heheheehhe
My point through out this entire thread is to quench the fallacy that atmospheric BOVs are "rice", as stated by you. They do have a meaningful purpose and are not simply for show because they do increase performance, perhaps only slightly.
Read my previous post on the issue (the post before the intercooler intermission), and then you can come back and concede graciously.....
I think you're just mad that I am right heheheehhe
My point through out this entire thread is to quench the fallacy that atmospheric BOVs are "rice", as stated by you. They do have a meaningful purpose and are not simply for show because they do increase performance, perhaps only slightly.
Read my previous post on the issue (the post before the intercooler intermission), and then you can come back and concede graciously.....
I think what you forget is that air has a considerable momentum, so for the fraction of a second that all the valves are closed, the air still carries and on and compresses due to it's own mass.
Also, with a recirc valves, the air tends to go round the loop over and over again (obviously losing pressure each time in the loop, but not as much as it it was vented straight to atmosphere, whilst the excess excess (yes, two excesses) goes out of the air filter) Some air will come out of the air filter, although I doubt you'd here it over an engine and road/wind noise. And yes, I agree the pressure will slow the turbine down quicker than if it was an open valve. But when you reopen the thottle, and the pressure can be used immediately, but with the open valve the turbo has to do all that work all over again.
I still believe that for road use a recirc valve is better, and for motorsport an open valve is better (although not one that is designed to make a loud noise). Sure an open valve is better than nothing, so I'm not saying it's useless with one, just that the car would be better on the road with a recirc one.
And the MAIN reason rices have open BoV's is because of the silly noise they make anyway...
Edit: I'll never concede graciously unless you prove me wrong!
Also, with a recirc valves, the air tends to go round the loop over and over again (obviously losing pressure each time in the loop, but not as much as it it was vented straight to atmosphere, whilst the excess excess (yes, two excesses) goes out of the air filter) Some air will come out of the air filter, although I doubt you'd here it over an engine and road/wind noise. And yes, I agree the pressure will slow the turbine down quicker than if it was an open valve. But when you reopen the thottle, and the pressure can be used immediately, but with the open valve the turbo has to do all that work all over again.
I still believe that for road use a recirc valve is better, and for motorsport an open valve is better (although not one that is designed to make a loud noise). Sure an open valve is better than nothing, so I'm not saying it's useless with one, just that the car would be better on the road with a recirc one.
And the MAIN reason rices have open BoV's is because of the silly noise they make anyway...
Edit: I'll never concede graciously
unless you prove me wrong!I have a hard time thinking that much air would be inclined to travel the recirc loop. The problem is that it's pressurized, and I seriously doubt that the momentum of incomming air would be enough to offset the desired release of pressure. One could calculate the amount of force air at sea level would exert when moving at say 400CFM, and see how much inertia that air would carry - I bet not a lot compared to 10PSI attempting to escape... I think you are forgetting that the compressed air wants in a bad way to leave the system, it's not going to gleefully continue running a loop that it can easily escape just for our benefit...
As far as hearing it, my boss has a PT Cruiser Stage 1 with a recirc valve, and part of the stage one is a CAI. Before the CAI I couldn't hear too much from the BOV, but now that the CAI is installed and the stock maze "see if the air can find it's way in" airbox is gone, I can hear the BOV almost (not quite) as loud as the SRT-4 (open BOV)I had a spin in a couple weeks ago. Lifting the hood and blipping the butterfly valve in the throttlebody by hand yeilds being able to feel the blow-out from the air filter if you rev it a little.
I agree with you that open BOVs are probably installed for the wrong reasons lots of times... but that leads to a point of difference between you an I: my definition of rice is static, yours is dynamic....
Besides, you started in this thread by saying open BOVs reduce power output didn't you? Or was it just wasting the potential energy in the form of compressed air that you were against?
As far as hearing it, my boss has a PT Cruiser Stage 1 with a recirc valve, and part of the stage one is a CAI. Before the CAI I couldn't hear too much from the BOV, but now that the CAI is installed and the stock maze "see if the air can find it's way in" airbox is gone, I can hear the BOV almost (not quite) as loud as the SRT-4 (open BOV)I had a spin in a couple weeks ago. Lifting the hood and blipping the butterfly valve in the throttlebody by hand yeilds being able to feel the blow-out from the air filter if you rev it a little.
I agree with you that open BOVs are probably installed for the wrong reasons lots of times... but that leads to a point of difference between you an I: my definition of rice is static, yours is dynamic....
Besides, you started in this thread by saying open BOVs reduce power output didn't you? Or was it just wasting the potential energy in the form of compressed air that you were against?
Blow off / bypass sound like this
(151 posts, started )
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG