Like I said, and it was just stated that I said this isn't the patch. I also said its not about blipping and such, as I done this WAY WAY before the patch was released.

I also stated that I wasn't flaming, nor "dissing" LFS. LFS is and for the forseable future is the "best" there is out there.

What I was basically stating was, that maybe with all this push for "Uba realism" the basic pick up and have some fun had been lost. A server telling me how the game should look, and how I should be driving is not fun? NO?

When you look at the whole development process that's happened, Forced Cockpits, removal of Digi Dials, FOV ( I have read somewhere this can be forced, sorry if wrong ). What's next?

Yes I have been here from day dot, and seen the whole progression come one hell of a long way. Some good some bad, but now the progression is "really" pushing realism, taking away the personability of the game.

OK so the come back would be, find another server, but who wants to spend 15/20mins looking for servers.

I said it before, and I say it again, we can all agree to disagree.

Mods - You can close this, as alot of people are taking my point way beyond what it was meant.

Chars

Fordie

I think most people who have listened understand your point, Fordie. They'd just like to see you spend some time adapting and hopefully continue to enjoy racing, that's all.

Quote from Fordman :

...

Wah wah wah, stop being such a sissy!
[subconcious message]LFS is AWESOME[/subconcious message]
Stop bathing in self-pity of how your LFS era seems to come to an end, LFS is still the pick-up racing that it ever was. Surely a few challenges were added here and there, but it's far from über-realistic. Non-wheel owners can still race in LFS, there is still an auto clutch to help you out, you still can have race after race with a simple restart vote instead of going through a practice-qualify-race procedure every time, you still have an insanely fast pitcrew (faster than light, considering how you can't see them) that fixes FUBAR'ed suspensions in no time and additionally to that cannot be harmed by driving into them and they immediately warp to whichever pitbox you chose. Forced FOV? Only exists in your mind. Forced cockpit? Only used in leagues and maybe a handful of public servers. Removal of the digital speedo option? You're really searching for reasons to dislike LFS if you list that as a point.
[subconcious message]LFS is AWESOME[/subconcious message]
Maybe that is what actually happened - YOU, after all those years, are starting to lose interest in LFS, but you don't want to admit it and are now desperately searching for a reason of why LFS "isn't fun anymore". I think the reason lies within you, not within LFS.
[subconcious message]LFS is AWESOME[/subconcious message]
So what can you do? I see three options. First, reprogram yourself (brainwashing) to be a realism nut. Second, suicide. Third, accept LFS for what it is and where it is going, stop taking everything so serious and dramatizing it to no end.
[subconcious message]LFS is AWESOME[/subconcious message]

This post is meant half joking, half serious ;o)
Lighten up a bit, LFS is not everything. Yes, that came out of my mouth - that's what you call irony, no?

I think the issue is that LFS isn't my or your game... it's the devs, and the push for uber realism is only as a result from what i think were their initial intentions.

If they were forced to change what their ideals are and instead make a more user friendly sim then you would soon see the end of LFS because I am sure the devs would lose interest VERY quickly.

I would also think that it would be in the devs best interest to make a product that sells well. As I understand, LFS is their main form of income. Sure, they can make LFS be whatever they want to, but if no one buys their product, what's the point? That would be the end of LFS as well.

Quote from arco :

I would also think that it would be in the devs best interest to make a product that sells well. As I understand, LFS is their main form of income. Sure, they can make LFS be whatever they want to, but if no one buys their product, what's the point? That would be the end of LFS as well.

But who says noone is going to buy their product if they make it how they want it to Besides, if certain type of players turn away from LFS because of increased realism other type of players will turn to LFS.
Scawen and Eric left a big software house with the main purpose being developing a sim their own way.
I regularly see people talking about how the devs are going to make enough money to live, well they have been doing this for years now so I'm sure they're doing fine. And Scawen has stated several times making money isn't the driving force behind LFS. If they wanted to make a lot of money they would be developing a different type of game. Let them worry about stuff like that, all that doom thinking makes no sense.

No I disagree arco

I think LFS will continue to have good sales as long as its a well maintained product. One of the main attractions to LFS compared to something like NetKar is the continual development.

I also think it's valuable that if you are to spend your life doing something you love and have passion for then you are only wasting your own time pursuing something that doesn't get you fired up. Something i fear the developers may do if they don't keep to what they believe in.

The devs would be only living a lie if they were to create something that isn't what they planned it to be... and LFS would soon lose its development, and community interest and just become NetKar part 2.

If you want to be sales based then simulations are not the profession to be in.

The potential for continual LFS sales exists, and they idea people will stop buying LFS is just not going to happen. Some smart marketing, and continually involved in the real world racing scene will ensure it's future.

Basicly what Fordie says now, is what I'm saying for quiete some time. Yeah, it is hateful to be lapped 5 times in a 3 lap race, but oh well... see the euh... fun part in it !


And when you have found the fun part, please let me know, I keep looking for it but haven't found it yet - or perhaps 3J keeps moving it so I would never find it

Quote from Hyperactive :

From my pov, nk pro did lots of thing right with its approach. Sadly it was buggy and now dead

I don´t know about nkp, since I already hated it before I even figured out how to get the engine going.
But at the risk of being too harsh you could say that LFS is quickly approaching nkp levels of untied ends with each patch.

Quote :

LFS is aimless and out of focus. Remember the thread?

I do and I still don´t agree with it.
However I think right now Scawen should focus on getting the AI to S2 final level instead of patching them to a semi finished state before christmas just to keep a deadline.
By that I don´t mean for him to code his way through the holidays, just that he shouldn´t release Y before the AI isn´t up to the high standards I believe he aims for, and if that won´t happen before christmas and we´ll still be in the test patch cycle for the holidays then so be it.

Quote from Shotglass :

But at the risk of being too harsh you could say that LFS is quickly approaching nkp levels of untied ends with each patch.

That I can't agree with.

Quote from Shotglass :

However I think right now Scawen should focus on getting the AI to S2 final level instead of patching them to a semi finished state before christmas just to keep a deadline.

That I can agree with.

Agreements-Disagreements: 1-1

Quote from xaotik :

That I can't agree with.

Can we agree if I point out that it was meant merely in a quantitative fashion not in a qualitative one?

I don't know why people dislike the clutch temprature...
it's not that hard...

just don't spin out more than once every 3 laps.

Personally I think the new side-looking functions are half-baked but I'm not going to declare LFS a busted flush over a test patch. It is nice, in a way, to see that lots of people get very emotional about this stuff though.

Nice sig, Shotglass.

It should be note Scawen is pushing for a pre-xmas release for the patch, it keeps the community happy and means he can spend time with his family without extra worry. I suspect that the patch has less in it than originally intended, to get the patch out and the FBM public. So it not having been 200% thought through is perhaps understandable. Let's enjoy what we have and see what patch Z brings.

Quote from Shotglass :

I don´t know about nkp, since I already hated it before I even figured out how to get the engine going.
But at the risk of being too harsh you could say that LFS is quickly approaching nkp levels of untied ends with each patch.

That is too harsh . Well, it is already quite harsh to say that LFS leaves stuff behind unfinished but that's the way the message gets across on message board .

Quote from Shotglass :

Quote :

LFS is aimless and out of focus. Remember the thread?

I do and I still don´t agree with it.
However I think right now Scawen should focus on getting the AI to S2 final level instead of patching them to a semi finished state before christmas just to keep a deadline.
By that I don´t mean for him to code his way through the holidays, just that he shouldn´t release Y before the AI isn´t up to the high standards I believe he aims for, and if that won´t happen before christmas and we´ll still be in the test patch cycle for the holidays then so be it.

I can't help to use his chance to mention the sound patch. Maybe the evil is the set release date, or countdown to christmas. It is really a nice gesture and all to try and offer something special for christmas but in the end...

Quote from xaotik :

Quote from Shotglass :

However I think right now Scawen should focus on getting the AI to S2 final level instead of patching them to a semi finished state before christmas just to keep a deadline.

That I can agree with.

Agreements-Disagreements: 1-1

And I disagree with that. The lifeline of LFS is the state of constant improvement, it is the reason why people still play LFS in large scale after so many years. Finishing S2 would take away the biggest plus LFS has, the patches. It is already taking lots of time to get a patch with new big features and it would be a bit let down if the S2 was finished in the next 12 months. After that, what, or more precisely, what's between S2 and S3? . S3 in 2010? And S2 is defenately not in state to get "S2 final" in my books. Sure there aren't many raw bugs but lot of basic features are missing that I'd personally think would be better off in S2 than to wait in S3.

Agreements 1-2-2/sqrt2
disagreements 0-0-7
Straight flush.

I have to say the clutch system isn't my favorite, I think it could be modeled more accurately, but other than that I completely disagree with those statements. The fact that the game is so real is what makes it fun. I sim-race because I can't afford to go out and build an open wheel car, much less run it, and this is as close as I'm ever going to get. The competition has never been better and though the game lacks real life cars and circuits, it has quite a variety (not enough though) to choose from and race. If only I could get a sponsor I wouldn't have to be playing this great game.

Quote from Bob Smith :

It should be note Scawen is pushing for a pre-xmas release for the patch, it keeps the community happy and means he can spend time with his family without extra worry.

I do hope he does give himself time off at or before the 23rd, a happy Scawen means a productive Scawen!

Poor man; I would go insane if I was in his place.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Personally I think the new side-looking functions are half-baked but I'm not going to declare LFS a busted flush over a test patch.

I don´t think anyone is. LFS is still far far away from that.

Quote from Hyperactive :

And I disagree with that. The lifeline of LFS is the state of constant improvement, it is the reason why people still play LFS in large scale after so many years. Finishing S2 would take away the biggest plus LFS has, the patches. It is already taking lots of time to get a patch with new big features and it would be a bit let down if the S2 was finished in the next 12 months. After that, what, or more precisely, what's between S2 and S3? . S3 in 2010? And S2 is defenately not in state to get "S2 final" in my books. Sure there aren't many raw bugs but lot of basic features are missing that I'd personally think would be better off in S2 than to wait in S3.

Oh i fully agree that what keeps me interested in LFS is the ongoing development. Scawen on the other hand has stated several times that the team is now pushing to get rid of the alpha designation and I just don´t see how he´s going to achieve that by making bits and pieces of the sim marginally better instead of focusing on one thing at a time and bringing it into a state that´s worthy of a final.

In place of no gearbox simulation at all we now have a clutch with dodgy physics and instead of AIs that can´t pit and will spin off whenever their tyres aren´t at optimum temperature we now have AIs that ram each other in the pits and spin off when they try a move that doesn´t follow the ideal line (not to mention that AI learning seems to have been lost in the process).

Quote from Sticky-Micky :

LMAO @ people winging on about having a "hardcore mode" and wanting the game harder, and then winging on because its to dam hard to play anymore


muppets!!! LOL

Yes, I know. I'm so ashamed of myself... oh no... god help me!

Quote from Shotglass :

Scawen on the other hand has stated several times that the team is now pushing to get rid of the alpha designation and I just don´t see how he´s going to achieve that by making bits and pieces of the sim marginally better instead of focusing on one thing at a time and bringing it into a state that´s worthy of a final.

Well he has also said that it will take specific things to make it non-alpha (which include fully functional AI and GTR cockpits) and I expect he'll stick to his word like he always does. And still that only brings us to beta. Somehow I have a feeling that before it's out of alpha and into beta he'll also redo the engine model. Especially if he gets track time somewhere again.

You know - maybe what would inspire him more is if we all pitched in and got him on a racetrack again. :P

Well I have not been playing LFS for very long (about 9 months i think) but I can say that Lfs isn't ultra-realistic, and that is why i like it.
I am not one for super real games because it does take the fun out of them.

I do think lfs is real enough not to be outdated but unreal enough to still be fun.

I know many will disagree but I would've given up long ago if it wasn't enjoyable

Speeder.

The bottom line is you can't boast about how realistic the physics are, then complain when something else is added to create even more realism. It's either a simulation, or it's not. You can't add some parts because it's great, but miss others out because it makes it a bit harder.

You might even need to relearn the tracks, but that's only because you've essentially been exploiting a missing feature up until now. It'll get tweaked and refined, but you need to get used to it, just like you needed to get used to the addition of suspension damage and tyre wear and fuel usage.

Quote from xaotik :

Well he has also said that it will take specific things to make it non-alpha (which include fully functional AI and GTR cockpits) and I expect he'll stick to his word like he always does.

So do I, it´s just that i was expecting something a lot different than X33from Scawen in crunchtime mode.

Quote :

And still that only brings us to beta.

Seeing as LFS is virtually free of any crashes or anything else that qualifies as a bug in its current state I wouldn´t expect the beta to last any longer than your average test patch cycle.

Quote :

Somehow I have a feeling that before it's out of alpha and into beta he'll also redo the engine model. Especially if he gets track time somewhere again.

I´d hope so and I hope this time round he won´t stop working on it half way through and bring it to 100% S2 level. Even if it breaks the sound system or the clutch at least one bit will be off his mind that way.
If he keeps doing gradual improvements the to do list which appears to act as a writers block won´t get any shorter any time soon.

Quote from Shotglass :

I´d hope so and I hope this time round he won´t stop working on it half way through and bring it to 100% S2 level. Even if it breaks the sound system or the clutch at least one bit will be off his mind that way.

This time round...? What, like the last time? I didn't stop working on the engine model half way through. I didn't start a rewrite at all. X33 has the same old engines with stalling ability added and red lines limited to realistic levels. This had nothing to do with stopping half way through. This is the engine update that could be done in the time available. Full engine rewite to new standards will be many weeks of work, it was never even considered for Patch Y.

Quote from Shotglass :

If he keeps doing gradual improvements the to do list which appears to act as a writers block won´t get any shorter any time soon.

Maybe I don't know what you are talking about, but it sounds like you think I am suffering from some kind of writer's block. I guess that implies I spend a lot of time sitting around, unable to start things, or not knowing what to do. But that is complete fiction. I've been writing massive amounts of code, for many hours a day, You are just totally underestimating the time it takes to do things. Go and read the update list for X30 and then tell me I'm suffering from writer's block.

It's all a matter of time, don't lose patience. I'm not in a rush to finish LFS in super quick time, things are going fine.

I'm on a rush to get Patch Y out this week though... just glanced in here on my forum checking, and had to set this right!

Quote from Scawen :

This time round...? What, like the last time? I didn't stop working on the engine model half way through. I didn't start a rewrite at all. X33 has the same old engines with stalling ability added and red lines limited to realistic levels. This had nothing to do with stopping half way through. This is the engine update that could be done in the time available. Full engine rewite to new standards will be many weeks of work, it was never even considered for Patch Y.

What I meant was the way you did patch it up a little here and there. It feels a bit like after stalling was implemented the shortcommings of the current model really came out and you had to change the inertia to hold out on working on the engines just a little longer.

Quote :

Maybe I don't know what you are talking about, but it sounds like you think I am suffering from some kind of writer's block. I guess that implies I spend a lot of time sitting around, unable to start things, or not knowing what to do. But that is complete fiction. I've been writing massive amounts of code, for many hours a day, You are just totally underestimating the time it takes to do things. Go and read the update list for X30 and then tell me I'm suffering from writer's block.

That´s not really how I meant it. All I was trying to say is that I´d imagine the to do list is rather intimidating at the moment and thus can easily sap energy rather than be a motivator.
So what I´m really trying to say is, that I really hope your brains reaction to being snowed under with work is different than mine´s.

Quote :

I'm not in a rush to finish LFS in super quick time, things are going fine.

Maybe thats the entire problem here. I was under the impression that you decided it was crunchtime for S2 final now which probably lead to the missunderstanding of what patch Y is all about.
Plus I´m somewhat miffed that the collision detection still hasn´t improved.