IMHO, automatic transmission is unrealistic, if it is meant to be like rl automatic transmission. Instead, it acts like someone else shifts gears for you.
I'm not going to lecture how rl automatic transmission works, I figure you all (Well, most of you) know how.
Maybe it is because I suck, but I can get same lap times with automatic transmission and with manual tranny (Ok, automatic is mostly even faster).
Suggestions? Am I the only who who thinks like this? Should I just stfu?
This reminds me an old amiga 500 game "Grandprix". There was lots of helpers, like automatic transmission, suggested gear in turns and even automatic brake. So, all you had to do is keep the pedal on the metal and voi'la.
To be more sarcastic, can we have automatic brake in LFS?
It must be the suck option, because for most people automatic is at least two seconds per lap slower. And in real life it's probably a lot more than that!
But as said above, LFS isn't trying to simulate and automatic gearbox, and apart from decent drag cars, it hopefully never will.
The only thing that adding realistic automatics would do is slow down the people who use it to rediculous speeds.
For one thing, an automatic shifts at around 4.5-5k rpm.
And second, the power loss from the torque converter would just kill the acceleration, most noticable would be in the XRG, the thing would drive like a golf cart.
With that said, for the most part an automatic transmission isn't a performance death penalty anymore. The Lockup torque converter takes the torque-converter loss out of the picture for the most part. They still weigh more, use power to drive a high pressure pump, and I suspect planetary gear-sets may be less efficient. A 5.0 Mustang I had locked the torque converter almost immediately even from a standing start. It was a tenth, maybe two, slower than a 5 speed car. 15.1 1/4 Mile was about exactly right for a Stock Convertible GT.
They still lose power, and in racing, thats what's going to kill you.
Most automatic production cars I've worked on are considerably less powerfull than there manual transmission counterparts. They just don't have the get up and go like a manual. And locking the torque converter only happens during cruising, during hard acceleration it remains unlocked.
Lock-up usualy only occures when the turbine is spinning close to 90% of the speed of the pump, so it coulden't possibly lock when accelerating since the pump is always going to be spinning faster durring acceleration.
Modern Lockup Torque converters do lock at Wide Open Throttle. Late-model AODE Cars are considerably slower if the Lockup converter does not lock. I installed an LED (That would indicate when the converter was locked whether I did it or the computer did) and a switch to lockup the converter in an F350 Diesel I had until recently. Out in mountains in Utah I was always upset that I had to goose the throttle if I was under 45ish MPH to make the truck lock the converter; which involved the locking mechanism having to pull the RPMs down to match. Instead with the switch I was able to match rpms and the lock it - like it arguable should have done by design. Once it was locked the computer would not unlock until the throttle was released such that the truck was coasting. When the converter locked during WOT It was very obvious with 500 Pound feet of torque on hand, it’s much harder to tell in a passenger car.
For me the real killer is you just never really know when the bast will change on you, never a good think when you want to balance a car through a corner.
My Civic would lock its TC at WOT. It would hit gear 4, come near 4000 RPM and then the RPM would drop some. You KNOW that's the torque converter locking because the car continues to accelerate faster.
If your car locks the TCC at wide open throttle there could be a problem, possibly a heat issue. If you do alot of steady driving on uphill areas it will lock to prevent the transmission from overheating though.
"The torque converter clutch is an electronic clutch that will engage the engine and drivetrain 100 percent. The TCC is made to engage usually only in the top gear when the car is cruising, not accelerating. The lock up converter will disengage when the accelerator is pressed hard enough." - qouted from an article about locking torque converters.
And one from a racing site
"Lock up stock style converters. These are usually 12" converters that have a lock up clutch in them. Modified versions can have a stall speed of 2600-2800 rpm, depending on the construction. The lockup clutch is engaged under light throttle situations (cruise), which allows for greater efficiency, less heat generation and slightly better mpg. When racing, you can lock the clutch under WOT with a switch or with a race chip. This practice will gain about a tenth in the 1/4, but will eventually wear out the clutch."
I'm sure cars have been produced with Lock Up Torque Converters that don't lock at WOT. I think it's safe to say they are in the minority. Something was not wrong with my '95 4.6L Thunderbird, '94 5.0 Mustang, and '95 7.3L F350. These cars, I can personally attest lockup, at WOT. Also I've read more than one Article in Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords regarding AODE builds that mentioned this behavior. Did the old AOD (Not computer controlled) lockup at WOT? I don't know.
I happened across a Wikipedia article once (It has since been corrected I believe) that linked Guess Jeans to Herpes - Wikipedia does not offer answers I would bet a great deal of money on.
during full throttle the torque converter can reach a high enough pressure to transfer close to 90% of the power, thats the point of having it. It can feel like it locked, but it actualy didn't.
The point of having a locking clutch in the torque converter is to solve the power loss issue with low throttle driving. When you cruise on the highway, you usualy arn't applying enough throttle for the torque converter to run at full capacity. If the clutch locked when you snaped on the throttle it would be like dumping the clutch on a standard car and you would eventualy wear it out. It's not designed to operate like a clutch on a standard car, it just goes ON-OFF, there is no in-between.
As I stated, the TCC only activates when the pump and turbine speeds are running at close to the same speed. And you probably didn't realize that the article I qouted said electronicaly controlled, meaning it's on newer vehicles which have computers to determine when the clutch engages. On older systems it was operated by a valve assembly inside the transmission.
Custom built muscle cars and the like will have modified the system to lock when the throttle is opened because they want maximum power transmission through the converter, however, this leads to jerky shifts because the converter won't unlock untill the pedal is released. The same thing applys for when you are cruising, the lock up stays untill you either accelerate hard, or release the gas momentaraly.
An extra qoute from information about torque converters on an auto repair site. "The TCC:
The purpose of the Transmission Converter Clutch (TCC) feature is to eliminate the power loss of the torque converter stage when the vehicle is in a cruise mode. The TCC System uses a solenoid-operated valve to couple the engine flywheel to the output shaft of the transmission through the torque converter. Lockup reduces slippage in the converter increasing fuel economy. For the converter clutch to apply, two conditions must be met:
Internal transmission fluid pressure must be correct.
The ECM must complete a ground circuit to energize the TCC solenoid that moves a check ball in the fluid line. This allows the converter clutch to apply, when hydraulic pressure is correct.
The TCC is very similar to the clutch in a manual transmission. When engaged, it makes a direct physical connection between the engine and transmission. Generally the TCC will engage at about 50 mph and disengage at about 45 mph."
and most are 4 speed lol so that means lower gear ratios so slower ! everyone knows that, att is good for drags and manual is good for racing as the computer is not going to think about every track and car that what rpm the car needs to be in when u enter and exit a corner properly so hence for racing a manual is better.
im dyslexic so read it twice if it still don't make sense ill try re wording it later
I understand you found various articles on Wikipedia and elsewhere that give you the impression you know everything. I'm going to refrain from commenting on vehicles I know nothing about so that I don't look foolish. What I can tell you is that I have owned various AODE and E4OD equipped vehicles and not only will the PCM lockup the TCC at WOT; TCC Control is not "On" or "Off" for AODE and E40D equipped vehicles. Using Pulse Width Modulation the Transmission Control Unit can effectively modulate how quickly the Lockup clutch transitions to static friction; not exactly like partially engaging a clutch with a Manual transmission but the results are the same. You can bet ford is not the only company that uses PWM - Your article is dead-$#%^-wrong if they mean to imply this information applies to all vehicles. I assume they are generalizing but unfortunately some people will assume this information is beyond reproach. And no - that's not a snippet from your local interweb. But this is:
I talked to my boss about this today, He's worked for several auto makers, such as Honda. And he basicaly confermed my statement, the TCC WILL NOT lock when the TPS (throttle position sensor) reads 100%. For it to lock the VSS (vehicle speed sensor) would have to report a speed of 255mph.
you wanted a table, here's a table. please note that even though a cars dash reads in km/h all the sensors still report in MPH, its a standard for OBD-II
This is a chart from a standard mapping, I don't know what car it came from, or what software is displaying it. but this is what my boss told me to find. He will probably give me another one from a Civic or something when I ask him tomorow.
Edit: it's from a 93' Firebird Ramjet
Also, this is only for mapping one of the conditions, the others are that the vehicle is traveling with relatively steady throttle, and the transmission fluid temp is above 70ºF thats what your information is saying GobLox. If you read the related information about the vehicle you took that from (a ford since I looked at the same page) you'd realize that it doesn't say anywhere it locks at 100%.
When I said there isn't an in between for Locked-Unlocked, I meant it never lets it slip for any amount of time, it will still smoothely apply it though. It would be pretty harsh if it just jamed it on in an instant. You still feel it on some cars though.
If you are traveling on the highway and you plant the trottle, you will feel the kick down from the transmisson, or if you where previously cruising, you will feel it unlock. I don't know what causes the "locking" feeling that people described at 100% throttle from a stand still, but it definatley isn't the clutch locking. It could be the torque converter "kicking" in, but the only vehicle that I've ever felt that on was my aunt's car, it tended to just kick forward when you hit the throttle hard. However, it never locked the torque converter unless you where on the highway, you could feel the difference. My aunts car is a Ford Escort station wagon
For the particular car the data I have is from, you'd have to be going at least 53mph for it to lock.
As for AODE transmissions, on high performance builds they are modified to lock up at WOT.
My dads 96' E150 never locked the Torque converter unless it was on the highway, and it had an E40D transmission.
I'm sure you boss was on a drive-train engineering team there so his opinion does carry a lot of clout
Lovely. I requested Data or Operation Specifics from an E4OD or AODE. I had meant to imply, unsuccessfully it seems, that it should come from a reputable source; Ford specifically. You brought a Random screenshot, from some random program, for some random car that does nothing to prove your point. I didn't say that there has never been a car produced that would not lock the TCC at WOT; That's you, you're saying "never". This is an absurd position to try and defend, of course, as you and your boss are probably not so familiar with every make and model as to make a sound argument. Even more incredible is that you are, apparently, aware that the TCC can be locked to improve performance and, for no apparent reason, believe that this information hasn't reached manufactures where it might find it's way into production cars!
What is apparently lost on you is that I and many, many other 7.3L Owners have performed this simple installation: http://www.forgotton.net/mods/tclock/index.htm And it turns out, I'm not the only one who noticed this behavior. So my position is based on empirical evidence that I personally collected. I collected it while driving the truck every day for at least one year with a light on my dash that illuminated each time the computer signaled the transmission to Lockup. I think I'm a little more qualified to comment on the behavior of the E4OD than your are you imbecile. Do you think I'm lying? This is just astonishing. Please refrain from tracking down some random post where someone explains that the TCC does not lockup at WOT, obviously there are people who will make uninformed arguments and I'm still not interested in hearsay you collect from any source.
Good, thank you for telling me what my information means. These are diagnostic guidelines. Your right - it doesn't say that it locks up at WOT - What is does say is that there is only one (and no doubt, that will be lost on you or simply ignored because it does not confirm what you know in your heart of hearts to be true.) condition for throttle position that must be met for the TCC lockup diagnostic to be performed: Steady. WOT? oh good, WOT is a steady state, I guess we can perform the test there too. This is actually not enough information to prove my point. Maybe the diagnostic will check these parameters and not lock the TCC and that is the correct result for those parameters. I don't know. I don't care. Thankfully I had all that Empirical evidence to back up my argument; it does a pretty good job of filling in small gaps like that.
Yeah, that's totally what it sounded like - thanks for clearing that up.
Oh man, slow it down with all this technical jargon there, I think you lost me. I forgot all about a Torque Converters tendency to "Kick in." My 10 years of REAL car racing experience, Various engine rebuilds, frame-up restoration of two vehicles (1966 Mustang Coupe & 1978 Ford Bronco), and years of following Enthusiast publications don't afford me much in the way of nomenclature. I had my '94 GT at the local drag-strip (Gateway International) quite a few times and I can say from experience that you can't feel the TCC Lockup from a standing start. Since I had the car at Stall-Speed on the line we can be pretty sure it wasn’t locked then. I never would have guessed that it was locking until I read a large right up on the subject in Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords. Years later I had proof positive that this was common behavior via a small LED on the dash of my '95 F350.
[/quote] Oh really? They modify the transmission to lockup at WOT? That is a feat considering that the transmission does not play a roll in determining when the TCC locks up other than the physical action. If the signal wire is disconnected the transmission will make no attempt to lock the converter.
As far as your dad's Econoline is concerned - I suppose it's possible the Econoline's do not lock the TCC at WOT, they certainly have a different computer. Or maybe it's that you didn't notice... Just maybe.
Either way - Seek Help. Your inability to even consider the possibility that you may be wrong will be debilitating later in life.
The 93 Civic manual from Helms (publisher of manufacturer shop manuals) was very thorough about the inner workings of the car, including not only how to fix everything on the car, but also pages of theory on how each piece of hardware (like VTEC) was designed to operate and should operate.
I remember reading about how the Auto works. In D4, the torque converter locker would work in gears 2,3, and 4, and in D3, it would only lock in gears 2 and 3. 2 would make the gearbox stay in gear 2 (no downshifting to 1), and 1 would obviously stay in gear 1.
The most interesting part of the auto gearbox is that gear 1 is always engaged regardless, but it has a one-way cutch that lets the input shaft spin slower than the gear. I guess that can be useful in case gear 2 breaks off and somehow the gearbox does not explode or leak in the process, allowing you to drive at speeds under 35 MPH to limp home. Of course, it does have little clutchpacks on gear 1 so it can engine brake (and wow does the Civic engine brake in gear 1!).
I'll look through the Helms again, try and figure out what is up with the TCC on the auto. I think the reason it locks at those high speeds is just because the difference is only a couple hundred RPMs between locked and unlocked. Or something wasn't right on it.
Heh, there's 30 pages of theory alone! Here's an XPS excerpt of the lockup operation for the 92-95 Civic auto. If you don't have Vista you have to install M$'s XPS Viewer. Don't worry, it's just a few MB worth having. Finally have found use of that "XPS Document Writer" printer in XP.
I just did a search on the database at work, It includes all of the parts of the cars it covers, maintance data and operating characteristics and data. It includes just about every model car you can think of from 82-05' years. Including trucks. It's an out dated version, but the information for the vehicles contained in the database is valid.
It even included a service statement about my dads current work vehicle. Aparantly, it jolts after a while when shifting from 2-3 or back 3-2.
I have to say, I was pretty amazed when I read the info about the lock-up clutch.
On every other vehicle it says it ONLY locks on cruising conditions, the only one that it says anything about locking at WOT was on the F350 Diesel, and only for one year I looked at, but I didn't check them all. All other models of car I looked at don't lock at WOT. On every other E40D and on the AODE transmission vehicles I looked at, the clutch only activates at cruising speeds above 60-70mph, set by Ford at the factory.
I looked at vehicles from Ford, Volvo, Chevy, GMC, Eagle, VW, Pontiac, Toyota, and Honda. I looked at all the vehicles you mentioned and all the vehicles I could think of that I've driven, or been a passenger in.
So yes, some do lock at WOT, but the Mustang doesn't without a kit that activates the solenoid.
With 90+GB of cars in the system I obviously coulden't check them all, and I can't post any of it because, 1. its at work, and 2. It's not legal to do so, or I would glady post every car I checked.
So in a way we both where right, and wrong. The only car that I found that does it without a switch mod installed is the F350 diesel, not even the gasoline F350 does it, I checked that.
That information was even in a special functions tab on the operational data tab, it states that the vehicle has that as a special function.
So vehicles that do this arn't common, and none of the F series I looked at that where made after 1998 locked at WOT, Diesel or Gasoline engine versions.
Also, the feeling of the converter clutch activating when on the highway is actualy stutter. Which there was a service advisory about for just about every car I'v ever felt it on, but I wasn't aware what caused it, lose rivets. There was even one for the F350. Seems to be a Ford issue since thats the only cars I'v ever felt it on, and the only ones that had the advisory included.
As for what I said about the toque converter "kicking" when you launch, it was only a speculation, because there's no TCC activation at a lauch, so anyone who says it locks then has to either have something wrong, or it's one of the clutches inside the transmission and the force is being felt as a jolt forward.
If a car locked the TCC at WOT lauch, it would stall the engine, or damage the clutch since it's not meant to be used like that. More likely it would damage it (not severly unless you did it alot). It is possible that when you slam the throttle, the torque converter will suddenly start transmitting torque, and it can be felt as a sudden jolt when the turbine starts spinning aswell.
belive me, I considered the possiblility that I could be wrong, Thats why I continued to gather information, but without someone giving me info about it in return, I'm not likely to belive them. If you request hard facts proving someones point, you should have already posted hard facts proving yours. Thats what I was attempting to do, but information about this is limited on the internet, I had to go and look at an official database to find useful info.
I was partly wrong, but I found it out using HARD FACT, not someone I don't know telling me "well, my car does it so all others should be the same."
The fact is, they arn't, when you said that vehicles that don't do it are rare, you had it backwards. There are only select models that lock the converter at WOT. Thats why they have kits to make the ones that don't do it, do it. And the kits come with a warning, you can burn out your clutch if you don't upgrade it. Obviously, your Ford had a clutch that was designed for it.
