I'm positive that you can push the brakes hard enough on any race car that they will lock the wheels. It's possible that after a while they will heat up enough that fade comes in and prevents them from locking at high speeds, but thats not where it counts.

We are talking at corners where you do alot of braking, like T1 at blackwood. Thats also a spot where the car's weight lifts a bit as you come over the hump before the corner. any real car would lock if you put the brake pedal down 100%. On real cars 100% is putting as much force on the pedal as possible, so it's garanteed to lock.

Pedal modulation is key when you run a realistic setup, I've run a realistic setup ever since I started playing LFS. I haven't been playing as long as my accounts been active, but I've been playing long enough that I've perfected some very realistic setups in the time I've been racing. I started with Racer though, and I was basicaly a car "fixer" for that simulation. My goal was and still is to make car setups that act as close to the real thing as possible.

I guess my lap times show it though, because I'm not the fastest. But I'm not the slowest either.
Take the adjustment away, and I bet I'd be faster than at least 60% of the faster racers here though. Because I already have practice doing it the realistic way.
I just refuse to run unrealistic setups.

In the end, LFS is a sim, so a wheel and pedals is the right way to play it. Just because the devs have been nice enough to put other control methods in doesn't mean they have to keep unrealistic features to make keyboard players happy.

Quote from GobLox :

Wheel size is irrelevant if you can keep your tire diameter the same with an appropriate profile. But I agree; It's been mentioned a few times that you could just change the calibration of the axis or I guess wood is an option too. If someone wants to go to that much trouble to cheat then I guess they have earned it (as much as a cheating louse can earn something) but currently you have to be a glutton for punishment not to use the system in place and taking it away would mean that 99% of the field is on the up and up.

It certainly isn't irrelevant - for a fixed tyre diameter a larger wheel decreases sidewall height, which has rather large ramifications for handling and grip, which is why most race cars don't have silly low profile tyres as seen on modern road cars (although regulations also play a part in this).

Quote from DragonCommando :

In the end, LFS is a sim, so a wheel and pedals is the right way to play it. Just because the devs have been nice enough to put other control methods in doesn't mean they have to keep unrealistic features to make keyboard players happy.

Yes they do. To stay alive, LFS needs to attract a steady stream of new players. (Licensed players won't produce new income for the devs until S3 is out.) Many newbies will start as mouse or kb drivers -- you can't expect them to buy a FFB wheel just to try out LFS. And if the learning curve is too steep, they will give up and go to the competition.

<offtopic>
Don't get me started about LFS being a sim. You use it for your enjoyment, so it's a game. It would be a sim if professional racers would use it for practice, but there are none AFAIK. On the other hand, Lewis Hamilton is rumoured to use GT4 to learn F1 tracks, so GT4 is a sim.
</offtopic>

Agreed with Wsinda.
I see the brake force setting option as a compromise in LFS, that would not be necessary if all of us had racing cockpits to get a good enough feeling to modulate braking force.
Until then, sitting at a desk in front of a screen (at best!) and without G forces feeling I think the existing compromise is necessary and I understand why it is here.

I had crappy combined pedals and a garbage wheel that cost me $12 canadian, and I got along just fine modulating brake force. I've never used any aids. So saying that you can't modulate brake force because you don't have the g-forces is bull. I almost never lock the wheels of my car when racing. I only do it when I'm not concerned about it.

I think the only way LFS can move forward is to start removing all of the variables that alow people to make unrealistic setups for there cars, untill then, you will still get people who don't want to learn the right way. And that is what holds LFS back from being the best of the best in sims.

And taking away the brake force adjustment will not hinder the keyboarders if they know how to set it up anyway. They can just use the control rate option. Thats what I've been doing for now, since I haven't finnished building my DIY pedals and wheel.

As for LFS being a sim, It IS being used for race training, and it's also being used for another one of those new race driver competitions. Calling GT4 a sim is a joke, after playing that, and then driving one of the cars from that game for real, I have to say they realy got it wrong. In LFS I set up the XRG using real world variables, and then took it for a spin in the parking lot. After that, I drove a similar car, since I coulden't get my hands on a Starion. The dynamics of the car where almost spot on.

Quote from DragonCommando :

I think the only way LFS can move forward is to start removing all of the variables that alow people to make unrealistic setups for there cars, untill then, you will still get people who don't want to learn the right way. And that is what holds LFS back from being the best of the best in sims.

You know, I get an icy feeling when I read words like that. I see visions of re-education camps for dissenters who deny the Sublime Truth (tm), and who try to lead us away from the Glorious Path to Racing Paradise.

Quote :

Calling GT4 a sim is a joke

Sure. Yet you failed to see the irony.

Quote from wsinda :

You know, I get an icy feeling when I read words like that. I see visions of re-education camps for dissenters who deny the Sublime Truth (tm), and who try to lead us away from the Glorious Path to Racing Paradise.

seriously, WTF?

If we want LFS to be the most realistic racing sim there is, things need to change to prevent people from doing unrealistic things.
The whole point of LFS is to be a racing sim, NOT a racing game.
It's even in the title, Live for Speed: Online Racing Simulator.
For it to be a simulator, it must be as realistic as possible.
I'm not just talking about max brake force here, EVERYTHING needs to be limmited to realistic values.

The thing that annoyes me the most about this is, now that I know about this kind of cheating, I understand why I'm not one of the faster drivers. And it sucks, all this time I thaught people where setting the brake force to reasonable levels, and now I realize that I'm one of the probably fue people who actualy uses the threshhold braking technique.

How am I supposed to look at other drivers times now compared to mine? Knowing that all this time I've been playing it the hard way and that there's a possibilty that they are faster because of there ability to just mash the brakes without worrying like I do?

If we're simulating real racing in a computer generated world, the same principle applies - use every advantage you can, and push the rules to the limit. By not doing so it's no wonder you are slow. Morals don't count on the victory podium.

In a real racing situation, brake force is controled by the drivers foot, there's no brake force adjustment on a real car setup. So for LFS to be realistic, then brake force should be done by the player, not by the settings in there setup.

This doesn't mean that you can't play with a keyboard like people seem to think is the case. I've been playing it with the keyboard since my crappy pedals broke, and even with my setups that lock the wheels at 100%, I still manage to get similar times without locking the wheels at all. I've lost about 1-2 seconds, but thats because I'm not used to using the keyboard to steer.

Coefficient of friction, and the maximum reasonable amount of force a human can apply to the brakes, limit the amount of maximum braking force in real life. The materials used in discs and brake pads would effectively limit the amount of maximum braking force. In real life no one wants brakes that are overly sensitive, brake materials are choosen based on weight, speed, and grip of the cars they're used on.

In racing sims, since few, if any, players have force sensing / force feedback on the pedals, I don't have an issue with a maximum braking force. Then again, I don't have an issue with any assists as long as the assists don't give an advantage or if servers can choose not to allow certain assists. The more options in the game, the wider the audience, without taking away from the purists that will only run on the "no assists allowed servers". I don't see how it's in the best interest of the devlopers to diminish the number of potential customers as long as the core customers aren't affected.

Quote from JeffR :

In racing sims, since few, if any, players have force sensing / force feedback on the pedals, I don't have an issue with a maximum braking force. Then again, I don't have an issue with any assists as long as the assists don't give an advantage or if servers can choose not to allow certain assists. The more options in the game, the wider the audience, without taking away from the purists that will only run on the "no assists allowed servers". I don't see how it's in the best interest of the devlopers to diminish the number of potential customers as long as the core customers aren't affected.

But then you wouldn't, being a joystick user, and therefore playing for reasons other than realism or driving enjoyment. And being so slow I can see why aids are something you like.

Note that some real RC car racers still prefer the classic twin stick setup, as opposed to the newer trigger / side wheel setup, so twin sticks for a racing game, which is similar to remote control of a car, can't be that bad. After all, some of the top players in GPL used joysticks. If I'm slow, it's due to lack of talent / experience / interest. I haven't reached the point where the controller is going to make a big difference. Regarding the aids, I was faster with the aids off than on in GTR (using the wheel and pedals, which finally just quit working and are now thrown away). I'll use the aids to "learn" a new track and car combination, then gradually wean off the aids once I've learned the combo, saves a lot of time.

Thats the thing - we don't all have force sensitive brake peds or even progressive pedals -which is all thats needed really.

With a standard set of DFP pedals its handy to be able to adjust the brake power in order to prevent lockups, - simply because you have little pedal feedack on order to prevent it.
I have a modded brake pedals on my G25 (Nixim G25 brake mod), so I have a good feel of exactly how much pressure I apply to my brakes without locking.

I see no problem in anyone adjusting to achieve the easiest braking and do not see it as any form of cheating - as it is what a real team would be trying to do anyway.

^ I've installed this mod on the weekend, too. Feels great when you actually have something to press against. The only difference is that instead of spending 13€ on it, I simply used an old block of ink-rubber I had lying around somewhere (the hard plastic-y kind of rubber - normal soft rubber would crumble under the forces exerted on it).

Ah thats where I presume months of testing will tell the full srory -

Your eraser rubber may give acceptable results in LFS, - but it will not work properly in most other games, specially GTR 2 - GTL - Race etc.
Your Eraser rubber is far too hard and will not allow the full pedal stroke which is required in these games.

Also how will it have stood up after a few thousand compressions?

Let us know how it is performing after you have used it for some time.

That is true, it will not allow the full pedal range to be used, however, the G25 pedals are self-calibrating, meaning that every time you turn it on you have to "fully" depress the pedals anyway. Since you can't fully depress them, they will assume whatever range you can press to be the max range. Therefore I see no reason why it wouldn't work in any of the sims you mentioned (not that I play either of them).

The only adjustment I made was using DXTweak to alter the linearity of the brake pedal, so that the rubber-pressure part has more significance over the part where only the G25 pedal spring provides resistance. I also tried adding a deadzone at the start of the pedal range, but it proved to be too unreliable if I wanted just a slight braking force to be applied, so I settled with the semi-realistic approach I have now.

The reliability of this I cannot tell - I fully expect the rubber to crumble at some point - especially considering I actually used a sandwich approach, with two hard pieces being at the top and bottom to withstand the "localised" force of the spring housing interiors and a soft rubber in between to allow for a bit more range. But then again I enjoy taking things apart and putting them back together, so that's no biggie