Yes - it can be very annoying, comming out of a corner and clipping the grass the tinyest bit with 1/10th of the tyre's width and then the tyre is so dirty that the next corner you either understeer or spin depending on which tyres get dirty. Also, most tracks have gravel pits and their texture also contains some grass. Going on grass that is on the gravel texture has the same effect as gravel itself - very very sticky. So one small touch of the grass out of a fast corner (because gravel is usually on the outside of fast corners or corners at the end of long straights) and you are toast.

Quote from Funnybear :

I still reckon that this is actually a failry accurate simulation. If you use F1 as a comparison in real world racing terms dirt effects the cars considerable.

You cant compare LFS with F1! lol!
If we had an F1 simulation then you could, but we dont. Dirt effects F1 cars more than touring cars because they use and need so much grip for the cornering speeds involved.
The system we have is great but we need the dirt to last less time on the tyres and not have as much an effect on the handling.
The video says it all. There is very little change in handling when you've gone through the dirt in a RL car.

I think the effect of dirt on tyres is exaggerated. It only needs a tiny bit of the tyre to touch the grass/gravel/sand/w/e and in the next corner, going 60 km/h with almost no steering input, the car goes sideways as if it were on ice.

I'd like to see the tyres have different sections that get dirty (e.g. outside, centre, inner), and the effect be reduced especially at lower speeds. As it stands, LFS is only at alpha stage and I'm confident this will be looked at sooner or later. Until then, stay on the track!

I just watched that video. I might have to completley change my stance on this situation. Let me think this through.

Now, Beemers are rear wheel drive. It was the last corner, he had nothing to loose. He lost at least one place, potentially two if you take that he could have stuck the last corner and made the lead. TC's run quite high downforce on most tracks and not knowing what track that was I'm assuming that they are running a bit of downforce. Looking at the real world physics working (Spring compression, curb bouncing, (And thats another thing) tyre flex) Its actually nothing like LFS. There is also the surface to take into consideration, compacted mud. Dirty asphalt.

God.

I dunno what to think anymore.

Having actually gotten my times down to a "best of the rest" competiveness I am actually undestanding the dirt issue a little more. Possably the problem lies less with the actuall dirt issue than with the descrepancy of controllers and setups. If everyone was to run EXACTLY the same setup all using mouses, would dirt play such an important factor?

My new stance is, i think, that as an overall package LFS is the best simualation of racing driving I have played, probable due to the very fact that dirt, downforce, fuel etc actually play such a large part in the handling of the car. But the cars don't react the way I would expect them too. Don't feel heavy enough and, yes, I now think they carry their dirt for too long.

Converted.

P.S. the 'and another thing' was about curbs. They really don't behave how I would expect and see cars use the curbs in real life situations. In fact in LFS I try and avoid every curb I see becuase of the way it unsettles the car. I have done a bit of driving on track and you can use that figit that curbs give you to move the car around, but in LFS they just swallow you up and spit you out. Facing backwards. With the rest of the pack getting up close and personal with your bonnet. Hmmmmm. Is there another thread for a curbs rant?

Quote from Funnybear :

P.S. the 'and another thing' was about curbs. They really don't behave how I would expect and see cars use the curbs in real life situations. In fact in LFS I try and avoid every curb I see becuase of the way it unsettles the car. I have done a bit of driving on track and you can use that figit that curbs give you to move the car around, but in LFS they just swallow you up and spit you out. Facing backwards. With the rest of the pack getting up close and personal with your bonnet. Hmmmmm. Is there another thread for a curbs rant?

There's a few curbs that are like that, like those in the last section of Kyoto National, but most are ok if you respect them (and don't drive the "I'd rather be on my roof than on 4 wheels" XFGTR).

I thought about this some time. And i think, the griploss with fully dirty tires is fair but it last way,way to long. The tire should loose massive dirt when rejoining the track in short time. And by short time i mean something like 2-4 wheelrotations. After these 2-4 wheelrotations there should only be a small amount of dirt on the tire, which should be hardly noticeable. The rest of dirt should go away within "some corners".

Road normals should loose more dirt (all dirt?) after 2-4 Wheelrotatios then slicks.

What you think?

from a programming standpoint how does that work (ratio wise as regards to the wheel rotation thing)? Are there difficulties in the tuning of 'dirt'. Does anyone know if this is an issue that the Devs are looking at or even consider important?

I think that the devs would consider any issue that gets this much attention important. I firmly believe that they want to make the best sim on the market, and if the users are asking for a feature/change then they most definitely consider it.

I'd be shocked if Scawen doesn't change this (along with general grip levels, aero changes, etc) in the next physics patch. I can't wait!

Quote from M.Mos :

I thought about this some time. And i think, the griploss with fully dirty tires is fair but it last way,way to long. The tire should loose massive dirt when rejoining the track in short time. And by short time i mean something like 2-4 wheelrotations. After these 2-4 wheelrotations there should only be a small amount of dirt on the tire, which should be hardly noticeable. The rest of dirt should go away within "some corners".

Road normals should loose more dirt (all dirt?) after 2-4 Wheelrotatios then slicks.

What you think?

2-4 wheel rotations, so you think all the dirt should be off the tires within a few feet of the car joining the road. What do you base this one? Have you ever felt the surface of a real racing slick when its cold? (Even cold they are soft and sticky, hot the grid and other shite they would pick up would go into the tire surface.

I dont know how good LFS is with the dirt model but I know this. Before dirt on tires people would cut corners and be off the track wide to get the best speed through any given corner. With tire dirt enabled people tend to drive ON the track just like people do IRL.

Too many people have this hotlap/sprint race mentality and give up after they make a mistake or have dirt on their tires which might slow them slightly. Dirty tires is part of racing and YES it will make you slower through corners.

Personally I cant wait for the racing line to be implemented so that if you go off the line you pick up dust from the area of the track that is not clean or you hut the rubber marbles that will be off the line in the braking zones etc.

Quote from Woz :

2-4 wheel rotations, so you think all the dirt should be off the tires within a few feet of the car joining the road. What do you base this one? Have you ever felt the surface of a real racing slick when its cold? (Even cold they are soft and sticky, hot the grid and other shite they would pick up would go into the tire surface.

He was talking about road normal, which is not a slick tyre.
I kind of agree with all of you. I feel that Slick tyres aren't that far from real life now. But the problem is more with the road tyres. I don't know about you, but in real life when I drive over dirt and return to asphalt, my traction is little or not at all affected by the dirt. Also take a look at rally driving when they are driving a asphalt rally, just look at how much they are cutting on the dirt in the sides of the roads.

Quote from Woz :

2-4 wheel rotations, so you think all the dirt should be off the tires within a few feet of the car joining the road.

not all dirt , read again.

Quote :

Have you ever felt the surface of a real racing slick when its cold? (Even cold they are soft and sticky, hot the grid and other shite they would pick up would go into the tire surface.

Sure did i touched my slicks which i use on trackdays. Have you ever tryed to clean a hot dirty slick with your hand? You would be surprised how easy dirt goes off. Grass and sand can be removed with a wipe of your hand. Some smaller stones which are stuck in the slick, needs more force to remove, but you don't need a screwdriver or something. But pieces of rubber that you picked up needs some force to be removed, especially when the slick is cold again. Then you need a 'hot-air blower' and a putty to remove these rubber pieces. Not to mention that there isn't just on compound on the market , 'soft and sticky'.

Quote :

I dont know how good LFS is with the dirt model but I know this. Before dirt on tires people would cut corners and be off the track wide to get the best speed through any given corner. With tire dirt enabled people tend to drive ON the track just like people do IRL.

I think in LFS dirt is faked rather then simulated(faked, like the physics in GTR are faked).
People do drive off the track IRL where it makes sense, mostly cutting the inside.

I like my tyres filthy.

Quote from Funnybear :

but in LFS they just swallow you up and spit you out. Facing backwards. With the rest of the pack getting up close and personal with your bonnet. Hmmmmm. Is there another thread for a curbs rant?

matter of fact quite often thats exactly what happens
the same flawed collision detection algorithms that send you to outer space if you hit a barrier seem also to be at work when you go over a steep bump in the road (like a curb) your car sinks into the curb and then gets thrown back violently
this is very obvious with the inside of the exit curb in the bl1 chicane (the one that sent so many of our gtis on their roof back in demo) and also with the kerbstones in the autocross arena

This is interesting, how do you activate this view. If I am in cockpit view I do not see anything on the tires when I go onto grass etc.

What View? Someone removed a post or have you wrong-threaded?

Someone mentioned earlier that they where waiting for the racing line to be implemented . . . Is that going to happen? Now that would be good. But is it workable? Do most of the races last long enough for the racing line to become a factor? How to you ratio in the dirt and marble buildup?
Am I asking far to many questions? Does everyone think my purple car looks pink?

Is there a Dev. wish list somewhere that explains or shows what they are planning for the physics patch or is it a wait and see job?

Quote from Funnybear :

What View? Someone removed a post or have you wrong-threaded?

F9 shows your tire condition, the brown bar raising up in the middle is the amount of dirt on your tires (you wouldn't believe how long it took me to figure that out).

Quote :

Someone mentioned earlier that they where waiting for the racing line to be implemented . . . Is that going to happen? Now that would be good. But is it workable? Do most of the races last long enough for the racing line to become a factor? How to you ratio in the dirt and marble buildup?

League races are definitely long enough and NEED to have a racing line buildup.

Quote :

Am I asking far to many questions?

Never too many questions in my opinion. A question never asked is a question never answered.

Quote :

Does everyone think my purple car looks pink?

I think it just looks gay! Hehe, just kidding bud .

Quote :

Is there a Dev. wish list somewhere that explains or shows what they are planning for the physics patch or is it a wait and see job?

There is a fantastic "progress report" thread on the developement of the developer's plumbing and kitchen project. I do believe it may be the longest thread here in the forum. Search for "progress report".

Cool . . . I know about the dirt tyre view. I thought he was talking 'bout something else entirly.

And my car looks Gay eh? Bent as a Butchers hook eh? Camp as a row of tents eh? Makes me look like an uphill gardener eh? Makes me look like I'm a fully paid up member of the Will and Grace Fanclub eh? You saying I actually like maddona and cryed when Steps broke up eh? Ok so the last two might be true, but I am very comfortable with my sexuality. Whichever way it lies . . .

Would this be a bad time to ask if we're going to get marbles on the tracks?

I've no issues with the dirt simulation as it stands now, but then I don't have any RL comparisons of my own to offer. Therefore, I take what LFS tells me and assume that it's based on RL physics. If it could be more accurate, I look forward to it. If it's already accurate, I'm happy. I must add though that I've ridden the curb on many an occasion, and expected dirty wheels as a result, and been thoroughly relieved to see that I'd been spared. Definitely, riding the curb, and hooking it, doesn't automatically result in dirt.

I'm assuming that the muck-fizzix takes into consideration the temperature of the tyre, and thus the stickiness of the slick, and thence the resulting glue-factor.

I'd be happy to see marbles introduced (if they haven't already been) as a factor, on tracks that have seen some use. Since we don't have variable weather yet, I guess it would be down to the devs to figure out at which point the track got washed by virtual rain.

I know that getting outside of the racing line for F1 cars can be as bad as getting into grass, towards the end of a racing weekend. For LFS cars, I'm sure the same could be true, to a proportionally physics-based extent. As time gets on, wandering off the well-ridden racing line could be costly.

If it's realism we're seeking, then ultimately I'm sure this will be a feature of LFS. I like things as they are because to me they're realistic. LFS can only BE as realistic to me as my OWN imagination permits, however. In real life I have absolutely no comparable experience of any of these vehicles or any of these tracks, but thanks to LFS my imagination does have SOMEthing to chew on.