Quote from March Hare :

@tristan
Is radio communication and telemetry really that rare in racing?
I'm actually quite shocked by this.

Yes, it's very rare. Pit to car (one way only) radios are very expensive. Telemetry even more so (requiring data bursts, something to receive it, someone to analyse it etc). Both cost more than most club racers cars!!!!! And most club racers (including single seater drivers) either work on their own, or have one helper.

There isn't enough time, money, experience or people in club racing to make radio and telemetry widespread.

More and more people have datalogging, but you can only look at that afterwards.

I'd maybe say throw in an engine light in the dash but thats it. I can't say having a damage meter is really needed :S

Quote from DeMS :

I would rather prefer it to be as following :

On-line races :
Indicators enabled/disabled via server configuration

Off-line races :
Indicators enabled/disabled by user EXCEPT on hot lap mode, where all should be turned off

This way, people would choose the server that fits their skill level the most, and would solve some other trouble as well.

Rather than an indicator of engine damage, I would prefer to see some smoke when the radiator is blown or some analogue effect that would tell me that the thing ain't going fine.

To complete it all, it would be a nice touch if after the race, you would get a report of what has failed or what degree of damage did every/most/most important parts of the car get, to improve people's driving.

+1

Quote from AndroidXP :

Not completely correct, getting the amount of detail LFS gives us would be a very tricky task, considering how in RL you'd only be able to measure surface temp, whereas LFS also gives us info about the rubber core temp.

From the surface temp and the air temp inside the tyre you can calculate an aproximation for the core temp. It's not spot on but gives you an idea.

@tristan
Live for Speed - Club racing simulator

Well, most of it is. From the UF1 to the UFR they're more club level cars. The FOX and FBM aren't much above it, and would probably not have telemetry. The big GTRs, FO8 and BF1 would probably have both, although you'd be surprised how little information is given to the driver based on the telemetry.

Quote from Woz :

You can hear engine damage, why have a guage that is improssible to have IRL.

Use your ears

Actually, I don't want a gauge at all, I just want those 'special effects' (smoke, water pouring and such) to actually tell me what part of the engine is broken. That is, when engine damage is fully implemented.

In any way, though, I never had such issues with engines (playing offline as of now, will go online when I feel confident of not causing massive wrecks ), just when I wanted to blow a couple of tyres to see how the car would react (took a FWD on a straight, max speed, then put rear gear at full throttle... It was hot :] ), but that's about it.

And about the special effects, I mean it so, for example, when a radiator is blown, smoke usually comes out of the radiator mounting point (that would stop many wreckers, as one hit at ~40km/h faster than the other car, radiator would go bye bye), or when the turbo is blown, lots of smoke come and you lose all the power, or when you start the car on cold temperatures, some smoke would come out from the exhaust tube, or when the engine is putting a too poor mix, smoke should come out with the corresponding colour (I don't remember if it was white or dark, never had such failures :shrug, and... Well, I guess you get the message :]

I'm in for realism, but as long as it leaves room to newcomers to learn the basics to a certain degree so they are not a nuisance to existing seasoned drivers.

+1 for (better) engine damage. However, it has been suggested before. Special effects, like smoke, would be a great addition (Where is my smoke mod??++)

"Pit to car (one way only) radios are very expensive."

Why? anybody who has some experience with electronics can built it himself.
Small legal simple devices area available for about €120. Radio receivers and transmitters of whatever type for short distances are cheap and small.

So why is it expensive for racing?


Datacollection will be more expensive, the software, all the sensors.. I can understand that, but it is not high-tech anymore. The analysis-software however, will be as high-tech as the team budget can afford

Once you've got transmitters on the car (where do you put them in the car? There isn't a lot of left over space in a single seater ), stuff in your helmet, a headset, a reciever, some wires, some batteries, then your car happens to be in range and the quality happens to be good enough, the costs, time and difficulty escalate.

And then there is the problem of what to say. For example, what can my father, on the pitwall, actually tell me as I drive by that I don't already know?

Smallest tranceiver I have used was smaller than a matchbox... And size != RMS++. It had 5W @ 2m and 2W @ 70cm.

Quote from Bluebird B B :

"Pit to car (one way only) radios are very expensive."

Why? anybody who has some experience with electronics can built it himself.
Small legal simple devices area available for about €120. Radio receivers and transmitters of whatever type for short distances are cheap and small.

So why is it expensive for racing?


Datacollection will be more expensive, the software, all the sensors.. I can understand that, but it is not high-tech anymore. The analysis-software however, will be as high-tech as the team budget can afford

I'm rather sure, on the other side, that it's quite hard to find on a cheap fashion:
a) A one-way radio that covers the distances of your typical race track (up to 3km on small ones, a lot more than that on big tracks) on a plain, level terrain.
b) A good quality headset that you can put inside your helmet without your ears hurting too much that you can hear something close to human voices from it. Add extra cash if you also want to understand them.
c) Some data collecting hardware-software system that is useful enough to tell you something you don't know so people from your pit wall can send some useful information (apart from position, which is something you should already know anyway), which includes another radio-component to send data.
d) Someone either foolish or dedicated enough to stay on pit wall to look at the data and communicate with you in an understandable fashion, giving relevant bits and pieces of relevant information (go and find that person, it's quite hard without paying or being into a club).

Keep in mind that :
a) Even F1 headsets/radios are not crystal clear and sometimes they have to shout the same things more than once.
b) On non-level terrain radios tend to be almost useless. WRC provides teams with radio coverage having a plane to send the radio feed and giving different frequencies to each team.

Not cheap.

Quote from DeMS :

I'm rather sure, on the other side, that it's quite hard to find on a cheap fashion:
a) A one-way radio that covers the distances of your typical race track (up to 3km on small ones, a lot more than that on big tracks) on a plain, level terrain.
b) A good quality headset that you can put inside your helmet without your ears hurting too much that you can hear something close to human voices from it. Add extra cash if you also want to understand them.
c) Some data collecting hardware-software system that is useful enough to tell you something you don't know so people from your pit wall can send some useful information (apart from position, which is something you should already know anyway), which includes another radio-component to send data.
d) Someone either foolish or dedicated enough to stay on pit wall to look at the data and communicate with you in an understandable fashion, giving relevant bits and pieces of relevant information (go and find that person, it's quite hard without paying or being into a club).

a) Not true. Club-racers can use 68 MHz VHF-transceivers. Costs about 150+ euros and the yearly license 16 euros. Distance in a forest-conditions (Worst condition) is over 5 kilometers with crappy antenna. With better one, you can achieve over 15 kilometer. "Better" racers can buy an own frequency from 150 MHz bandwith. Radio costs about 200+ euros and the yearly license about 50 euros.
b) Not true. Costs about 200+ euros to get a decent one (Autocom, for example </product placement>).
c) Depends. Only difference between voice and data is the modulation. Cut it and you get binary. Even I have used this kind of radio transmitter (Sent telemetry from a plane to ground). Costed about 30 euros, built myself. If you want aftermarket product, it would cost much much more. But why should we want to pay more for the same thing..?
d) No comment on that one. Beg your wife to do it?

a) I can't afford that. I doubt many club racers could.
b) I can't afford that. I doubt many club racers could.
c) Did you miss the point. His point was that to make use of a radio properly you either need very long races, or live (or burst) telemetry to the pitwall. Most club racers can't afford that.
d) Unless wife is very much into the racing scene, and the engineering world, how can you expect her to know what the data (if you manage to save up enough to afford telemetry and radios by only using 2nd hand tyres for 3 years) means, and what would actually be useful for the driver to know?

Me, for example. I have a nice set of dials. I know water temp, oil temp, fuel pressure (though the gauge was meant for injection, so our measily 2.5psi doesn't make the needle move much ) and oil pressure. I also have engine revs. In addition there is a nice light that tells me about oil pressure and flashes brightly if it drops too much (what I call an idiot light, and is something EVERY racing car needs), and I have two LEDS that tell me what the datalogger and onboard camera are doing. I'm shortly getting an onboard lap timer display (hoping to be part of a betatesting team) as well, so I have live feedback of my driving on a sector by sector and lap by lap basis.

What, exactly, could someone on the pitwall tell me? And even if you do manage to think of something, couldn't it go on a home built pitboard that costs about £20?

Quote from tristancliffe :

a) I can't afford that. I doubt many club racers could.
b) I can't afford that. I doubt many club racers could.
c) Did you miss the point. His point was that to make use of a radio properly you either need very long races, or live (or burst) telemetry to the pitwall. Most club racers can't afford that.
d) Unless wife is very much into the racing scene, and the engineering world, how can you expect her to know what the data (if you manage to save up enough to afford telemetry and radios by only using 2nd hand tyres for 3 years) means, and what would actually be useful for the driver to know?

a) Work harder. Decent steering wheel costs about that much.
b) Work harder. Decent steering wheel costs about that much.
c) I understood the point, and you can design own system for fraction of the costs of an aftermarket product.
d) Actually, that was a joke. :P

Quote from tristancliffe :

What, exactly, could someone on the pitwall tell me? And even if you do manage to think of something, couldn't it go on a home built pitboard that costs about £20?

The point is that you don't need telemetry, as you have so much meters and indicators. And I guess no club-racer would need such gadget either. Only reason for telemetry in a racing car is that if it doesn't have enough space in cockpit for meters/indicators/screens.

a) Decent steering wheel is round and has suede on it. My car came with one. It's fine.
b) As above
c) You can design a product that will take my datalogging and, in a single burst as it crosses the line, allow it to pop up on a laptop carefully prepared for viewing with a decent amount of reliability for not much? I'll give you £50 to do it for our car. It's a DL1 datalogger. Sadly, a bought system is several thousand pounds for live telemetry. Not including a laptop.
d) So, who is meant to read this information in that case?

Have you seen how small my dashboard is? In that case a saloon car will never need telemetry as they have more dashboard square metres than I have bodywork square metres!!!!

Quote from tristancliffe :

a) Decent steering wheel is round and has suede on it. My car came with one. It's fine.
b) As above

Obviously if TRISTAN wouldn't spend $300 on some datalogging equipment, I'm fairly certain any serious trackday racer wouldn't either.

Quote from tristancliffe :

a) Decent steering wheel is round and has suede on it. My car came with one. It's fine.
b) As above
c) You can design a product that will take my datalogging and, in a single burst as it crosses the line, allow it to pop up on a laptop carefully prepared for viewing with a decent amount of reliability for not much? I'll give you £50 to do it for our car. It's a DL1 datalogger. Sadly, a bought system is several thousand pounds for live telemetry. Not including a laptop.
d) So, who is meant to read this information in that case?

Have you seen how small my dashboard is? In that case a saloon car will never need telemetry as they have more dashboard square metres than I have bodywork square metres!!!!

a&b clarification: I meant steering wheel controller.
And trust me, it is not hard to make system what takes data from so-called datalogging and sends it through radio frequency. I have made MUCH complicated systems. Does datalogger have some kind of serial port for aftermarket-product? If yes, then it is already in binary form (Pin 1 is xx..xx1, pin 2 is xx.x1x etc). Either change it to BCD or use gray-code just in case, then let it cut the modulation of a radio and voi'la. Alternatively, you could use any kind of data-mode out there (AMTOR, PACTOR, G-TOR, you name it). Then you have a receiver that does it backwards. And finally, software what turpurates these binary-codes.

Does it sound too complicated? If so, you don't know much about radios. But then again, you don't have to. What I mean is that radio transmitters, or "one-way-radios" aren't high-tech traction beams a'la Star Wars. They are made by men...

a&b - what is a steering wheel controller? Surely that's the driver?

Maybe it isn't if you know about that sort of thing. But I don't, and I suspect most people don't either. I have no idea of the serial output of the DL1, although it is written somewhere (not that I understood what you wrote, or would understand what they write). But I'm pretty sure that the cost would be far too expensive for most people.

Stang - We spent about $1000 on datalogging (in total), and that's for a basic system without direct provision for telemetry. But I'll be in hell before I buy a bling steering wheel - I prefer analogue gauges.

Quote from tristancliffe :

a&b - what is a steering wheel controller? Surely that's the driver?

Maybe it isn't if you know about that sort of thing. But I don't, and I suspect most people don't either. I have no idea of the serial output of the DL1, although it is written somewhere (not that I understood what you wrote, or would understand what they write). But I'm pretty sure that the cost would be far too expensive for most people.

Stang - We spent about $1000 on datalogging (in total), and that's for a basic system without direct provision for telemetry. But I'll be in hell before I buy a bling steering wheel - I prefer analogue gauges.

Sorry, wrote it unclearly. I meant "steering wheel controller" as a game controller, like G25.

Problem is not the price of components, it is the price of manhours. I could make one for myself and it costs less than 100 euros. However, if I am going to make it to someone else, of course I would like to have some kind of compensation for my time. So, I noticed that my example sucks because not everyone knows how to build a radio. Sorry about that.

I'm getting confused. I don't see what a game controller has to do with the real life validity of telemetry and pit-car radio systems.

As with nearly all things, it's manhours. Materials are cheap, people (except in India and China and so on) aren't. As I would gain zero benefit with a radio or telemetry I'll have to give it a miss. If ever I think I could benefit, I'll give you a call

Quote from tristancliffe :

I'm getting confused. I don't see what a game controller has to do with the real life validity of telemetry and pit-car radio systems.

I admit it, it was bad example. The reason I used it because I bet you have bought multiple steering wheels in the past for LFS, right? So, if you can afford a steering wheel controller, why can't you afford a radio?

Quote from tristancliffe :

As with nearly all things, it's manhours. Materials are cheap, people (except in India and China and so on) aren't. As I would gain zero benefit with a radio or telemetry I'll have to give it a miss. If ever I think I could benefit, I'll give you a call

Please do. I am eager to design that kind of system. Or at least try.
/end of subject...

To get back to topic, I say my opinions once again:
-1 to damage indicator (Like clutch temperature).
+1 to oil temperature meter, oil pressure meter and water temperature meter.

Quote from Gekkibi :

I admit it, it was bad example. The reason I used it because I bet you have bought multiple steering wheels in the past for LFS, right? So, if you can afford a steering wheel controller, why can't you afford a radio?

Oh I see. My bad, I wasn't thinking. Yes, I've spent money on LFS stuff, but now all that money is going into racing. I can only just afford race entries and normal running costs, not extras!

Quote from Gekkibi :

Please do. I am eager to design that kind of system. Or at least try.
/end of subject...

Don't wait up for me. It may be a while before I can afford such a thing.

Quote from Gekkibi :

To get back to topic, I say my opinions once again:
-1 to damage indicator (Like clutch temperature).
+1 to oil temperature meter, oil pressure meter and water temperature meter.

Agreed.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Remove CT indicator
Remove car damage indicator
Remove tyre indicator
Remove map

Remove shift+P
Remove shift+S
When you crash you have to wait for the safety car to remove it from track.
When your car is damaged, you have to wait days until you can race with it again.
If your engine is damaged, race is over. You have to get a new engine, or fix the older one, which will also take days.
You have to pay for each fix.
Remove displays of lap times and splits. If you want to know your times, you need to pit and/or the team telling you by some device on your car.
Remove mouse and keyboard options.
You can't just adjust your setup by changing some values. You actually need to know mechanics.

Oh cmon... this is a game. Whats next? Have some device that hurts you in case you crash? -__-

Remove shift+P -agreed
Remove shift+S -agreed
When you crash you have to wait for the safety car to remove it from track. -agreed
When your car is damaged, you have to wait days until you can race with it again. -disagreed, but not instant repair
If your engine is damaged, race is over. See you next month.
You have to pay for each fix. - disgree, but not instant fix
Remove displays of lap times and splits. If you want to know your times, you need to pit and/or the team telling you by some device on your car. -agreed
Remove mouse and keyboard options. -agreed
You can't just adjust your setup by changing some values. You actually need to know mechanics. -agreed

Obviously most of these apply only to a 'hardcore' mode, allowing pick up racing to continue. But that goes without saying I'm sure.

I agree with tristancliffe: As realistic as possible. Sure, I would like to have traction control as an option to other road cars than fz50, but only because you can have TC on a road cars (as an option) in real life. Hell, I would like to have cruise control, electric windows and windshield wipers if they would have a meaning in racing situations. But because they won't (At least yet, maybe after Scawen codes rain...), no need for them in LFS.

If I would like to have less realistic driving game, I would continue playing NFS or flatout. But because I don't, then... Well.