Secret ramp FTW.

IMO, it sounds as if obviously the organizers were not prepared to go green that lap (based on the tracker troubles). Another lap under caution would not have hurt anyone, and allowed the marshalls to get into position to actually marshall, and perhaps avoid many teams' races being significantly screwed before the green flag.

Quote from MR_B :

I would have called for a red flag. Or safety car.

Would've could've should've. This is a little blunt, but the fact is that none of the admins properly saw what happened and none of the teams involved brought the true nature of it to the attention of the admins until way too late. Unless there's a specific rule change to discuss here, there's not much to discuss at all. This isn't like a real race where you have many sets of eyes on the entire track at all times, we have just a few with a relatively limited viewpoint due to the nature of the game. If you think something's gone wrong and the admins haven't noticed, the onus is on you as always to bring this to the admin's attention in a timely fashion.

- Admins admitedly weren't prepared
- Admins were watching leaders (mid-back pack would be much more sensible)

It is Not the drivers responsibility to call the SC out.

The procedure needs to be evaluated, and revised. My quick fixes:

SC - Pull off and park Before Green. Tab to view Last Place Car. (after clean start 1/2 lap, return to pit stall)

Other admin(s) watch mid-pack, as obviously the need is not to find any onus of blame at this point, but to become aware of any endangering situations.

Quote from srdsprinter :

- Admins admitedly weren't prepared
- Admins were watching leaders (mid-back pack would be much more sensible)

It is Not the drivers responsibility to call the SC out.

The procedure needs to be evaluated, and revised. My quick fixes:

SC - Pull off and park Before Green. Tab to view Last Place Car. (after clean start 1/2 lap, return to pit stall)

Other admin(s) watch mid-pack, as obviously the need is not to find any onus of blame at this point, but to become aware of any endangering situations.

It's not the responsibility of the drivers to call the SC out, but it is rather unhelpful to come back many hours later and complain about something (non-constructively just asking for blood for the most part) that the admins had no clue about that cannot be repaired way after the fact. Plus, it's standard practice in these leagues to bring things to the attention of the admins asap if something's out of whack and they haven't noticed.

The fact that none of the teams did report anything substantial at the time is rather telling. If no one immediately said 'Wait a minute, that crash happened before the green flag' and they were even involved in it, you can't seriously blame the admins for not noticing the nature of the wreck.

On the other hand, the admins could've been a bit more organized, but the best spot to watch the ENTIRE field is from a tv cam from the front. In the future multiple admins could be more coordinated to watch multiple parts of the pack, but you're still limited by algorithms that decide the view of the tv cam. Because of this, the 2 admins available (at least at the time during this race) just cannot reliably physically cover an entire strung out pack during a rolling start.

No way. Sorry, you're wrong. The admins should have spread their vision of the field and not been worrying about the tracker. If they couldn't another lap under SC would've worked fine. Sadly they were not, so we can try and figure what to fix for next time.

You're essentially saying "the admins are responsible for watching out forthe leaders, everyone else doesn't matter / fend for yourselves."

If something happens at the back, as was the case, it is missed watching the front.
If watching the back, even a leader spinning would be seen.

Yes, these guys could have scrambled to vent and told the admins, but they assumed the admins were watching the field, not both fixated on the leaders.

Either way, there is a lot of things that could have been improved in how the admins handled the start of the race, and I think we can all work to better the procedures to ensure everyone (even the mid-back pack) gets a fair shot at a clean start.

The leader has to be followed to make sure that the obey the new Restart rules of gradually speeding up. DWB had to do 2 jobs rather than the one job of starting the tracker he usually does, since i normally monitor the race starts and throw the green. So thats also hardly his fault, we were just a man down at the time (Kaw usually drives the Safety Car).

1. Normally there are more admins
   
2. DWB had to do more jobs than usual. The tracker and SC insim are seperate, so it takes a lot of time to get them both going for one person.
   
3. It's something thats never happened before and i definatly wouldn't expect a crash before the green was shown.

The fact is it happened and that we (the admins) did not have enough eyes to watch all of the pack. One was driving the SC, 2 where starting the tracker, one of which had to switch insim programs mid race start (DWB). Leaving just one admin, who has never seen an IGTC race start, to monitor the field effectively. There is both a Ventrilo AND Teamspeak channel which team members can use and alert us to situations. Throughout the whole race only 1 person joined the Teamspeak and Ventrilo channel. It's all good saying the admins should be watching here, there and everywhere but we aren't super human beings that can predict where to look. Especially when we are down 2 admins it makes life very difficult so for future rounds it might be worth a few drivers joining our VOIP channels where you can help notify us of similar situations.

Quote from BenjiMC :

for future rounds it might be worth a few drivers joining our VOIP channels where you can help notify us of similar situations.

+1

Well said, Benji.

In addition, I'd like to reiterate that in a perfect scenario we would have waved off the start, which would have given the cars who crashed time to repair and re-join the tail of the field. However, circumstances were far from ideal and this was the result.

I don't think the start policies require much modification beyond what Benji has proposed elsewhere regarding ways to avoid accordion effects in the pack. We just need to have all marshals present and doing the correct jobs, and things should go smoothly.

And we also need the drivers to do their part. This is not an attempt to blame all drivers involved for what happened. It was a racing incident, and though there is a root cause somewhere, it would be a very difficult one to accurately ferret out. Suffice it to say that proper spacing, careful observation of the cars ahead, and good reaction times can prevent a lot of accidents like these (especially on a track as wide and forgiving as KY2).

Quote from rcpilot :

Would've could've should've. This is a little blunt, but the fact is that none of the admins properly saw what happened and none of the teams involved brought the true nature of it to the attention of the admins until way too late. Unless there's a specific rule change to discuss here, there's not much to discuss at all. This isn't like a real race where you have many sets of eyes on the entire track at all times, we have just a few with a relatively limited viewpoint due to the nature of the game. If you think something's gone wrong and the admins haven't noticed, the onus is on you as always to bring this to the admin's attention in a timely fashion.

Calm down deary, don't get your knickers in a twist.

Blunt/ to the point/ abrupt/ K.I.S.S "Keep It Simple Stupid" whatever you want to call it. Some people don't need to write a book of verbal diahhrea to make a simple point.

With regards to the actual content of your reply. I've admined many races and you never sit and watch just one car. You're forever scrolling through the cars to pick up on close vehicles and mainly spinners. The map is also a useful tool in helping spot incidents. It didn't have to be an instant "Red Flag" or "Safety Car" but there was 3 admins on that server. More than enough to spot such an incident.

But yes, we're wasting time over trifles here so onwards and upwards... To round three! :bike:

Edit: Just read admin's replies, strike doesn't work on this server.

Quote from srdsprinter :

No way. Sorry, you're wrong. The admins should have spread their vision of the field and not been worrying about the tracker. If they couldn't another lap under SC would've worked fine. Sadly they were not, so we can try and figure what to fix for next time.

The tracker's kind of required, but it would've probably been smart to have us go around another lap instead of getting it sorted just in time.

You're essentially saying "the admins are responsible for watching out forthe leaders, everyone else doesn't matter / fend for yourselves."

No, I corrected you when you disregarded the fact that the leaders are just as important to watch as mid-field. A wreck is less likely up front, but if you want them to watch the entire field and admin everything on their own at the start of the race, they need to watch the front too.

If something happens at the back, as was the case, it is missed watching the front.
If watching the back, even a leader spinning would be seen.

If a leader takes himself out during the start, does that warrant a safety car? How would the admins know the facts surrounding the incident if all they see is a spun-out/wrecked car as the field goes by?

Yes, these guys could have scrambled to vent and told the admins, but they assumed the admins were watching the field, not both fixated on the leaders.

It's standard practice to give the admins heads up. I don't know why you guys have this idea in your head that the admins are omniscient. Part of being successful in league racing is being well organized and working with the rules to your favor. If we were involved in an incident like this, someone from our team would be announcing it to the admins within ~30 seconds.

Either way, there is a lot of things that could have been improved in how the admins handled the start of the race, and I think we can all work to better the procedures to ensure everyone (even the mid-back pack) gets a fair shot at a clean start.

Agreed, but some of this is quite unrealistic in implementation.

The admins cannot keep track of everything on track. If anything this is more of a 'what can we admins do better' issue than a rule issue, but in the end there is no perfect solution using the resources available and as such it's a requirement in this form of racing to point out rule infractions when you see them.

Most of us on the team have multiple forms of contact open with the admins in every race, especially an endurance event. And not just in leagues where our teammates are helping admin. There shouldn't be a 'scramble' to go tell the admins, there should just be a 'hey, look at this, such and such happened' as you casually go to your chat program etc.

Most of your stuff is valid RC, but my point is this:

Watching the front of the field on starts/restart, it's possible to miss a Major crash in the back.

Watching the back of the field, you'd still see a major crash that starts at the front.

Outside of the smooth start, the point is not looking out for one driver, it's to see the big picture. IMO this was proven, by the missed start.

It make life slightly easier to communicate with the admins when they're sharing your ventrilo server, but yes that avenue is there.

IF you ever find yourself short-handed as admins again: perhaps allowing 1-2 extra spectators into the server and on your vent to help watch the start could be beneficial.

As i said, there are both Teamspeak AND Ventrilo servers there for everyone to use. it's not a matter of convenience but more a matter of being arsed to use them (although Stu is one of those people that used Ventrilo for a moment). The information is there for everyone to use. I am always on both during a race so i see no reason why nobody else can be.

Stu, we also have IRC and MSN/AIM as means for communication. I haven't seen any S3R guys yet on IRC. We highly recommend it.

Pointing the camera downfield toward the leaders is just as effective as pointing it upfield at the rear of the field, in terms of seeing the entire line of cars (i.e., not very).

alright, ease it up a bit here. i'll take the blame, as i was the PC at the back of the field. since it was my first time helping the admins out, i didn't really know what to do, and TBH, the incident cleared itself up after ~10s. i was also going "by the book", so didn't see anybody flipped or anything, but now after hindsight, should have said something.

Quote from burnsy1882 :

alright, ease it up a bit here. i'll take the blame, as i was the PC at the back of the field. since it was my first time helping the admins out, i didn't really know what to do, and TBH, the incident cleared itself up after ~10s. i was also going "by the book", so didn't see anybody flipped or anything, but now after hindsight, should have said something.

<-- gets out the torches and pitchforks and passes them around

Time for a good old fashioned angry mob. :arge::bananadea :eek:

Quote from SamH :

For those who it affected, it was a huge crash. It was also so close to the beginning of the race (perhaps even before it) that it would have been reasonable and fair to those involved if the race had been restarted.

Perhaps it just wasn't so huge for you.

I was in IGTC for a first time and I didnt want to get talking penalty or something like that. I scared to do something silly. This race was very important for our team - it decided whether we can participate in IGTC season or not. Sorry that I see like a ... , but just I scared the SC too, because maybe i make a silly thing again.

It's not at all your fault. These things happen and an Admin has already owned up to seeing it, but didn't know what to do.

Quote from BenjiMC :

As i said, there are both Teamspeak AND Ventrilo servers there for everyone to use. it's not a matter of convenience but more a matter of being arsed to use them (although Stu is one of those people that used Ventrilo for a moment). The information is there for everyone to use. I am always on both during a race so i see no reason why nobody else can be.

Because we already are on our team TS server.
So what you're saying is that the driver who is racing, and maybe involved in the accident, should inform his team on TS, then one member of the team who is not on track should disconnect from the team TS server to join the admins TS server for giving you the information ?
Then you have to check the accident and to take a decision.
How long all of this would take ?
Not to mention that you'll only see the consequences of the accident and not the reason why it happened.

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

Stu, we also have IRC and MSN/AIM as means for communication. I haven't seen any S3R guys yet on IRC. We highly recommend it.

Same as above.
It would take too much time and IMO it's the admins job to check the whole field especially on critical moments such as the start and SC periods.

Team's voice chat to IRC usually doesn't take more than a couple of seconds to be honest...

But the time it might take an admin to see it there... especially during a hectic time like the start of the race...

Things are always going to have the possibility of falling through the cracks. We just have to do the best we can with what we've got.

Can I propose one permitted key bind?

Quote :

*SC*

If usage were established, it would solve the problem of not having marshals on every corner or straight, and it would help admins rapidly determine the severity of a developing situation.

If cars, directly involved in an accident, where they *believe* a SC will be required.. say, I dunno, sitting in the middle of the track with their wheels in the air.. or involved in a significant shunt, like we saw at the beginning of race 2, were to throw that single key bind, it could magically resolve these issues.

Throwing the keybind would not automatically mean that a SC would be called, but it would bring the matter immediately to the attention of the admins for the situation to be assessed.

We'll consider that, though I have to say that my initial reaction is that it's a pretty inelegant solution.

Might be able to do something with InSim to detect trouble, a la TV Director. Or just watch the start using TV Director. Hmm.

I appreciate that it's not desirable, but there has to be some system in place to accelerate the movement of information and sharing of knowledge. It's a mistake to repeat the same process and expect the results to change.

From the rear of the pack, it's impossible to avoid the concertina effect. I'm quite sure that everybody back where we were, and behind, just thought everyone had "gone early". The pack seemed to begin to accelerate very evenly, so it *felt* like we were off. We didn't realise (and had no way to know) that it was just more squeezing and stretching further up the pack.

I'd like to remind people that Teamspeak AND Ventrilo AND IRC are available to anybody. If one person in the team is connected to all of these while their driver does the driving then it's the simple matter of hearing what your driver tells you and then relaying that back to the admins. For example while the My3id car was having the lag troubles i was talking with the driver while still on Ventrilo and relaying the information back and forth trying to work out a solution to the problem. It's really as simple as binding Teamspeak to one button and Ventrilo to another.

Quote from SamH :

I appreciate that it's not desirable, but there has to be some system in place to accelerate the movement of information and sharing of knowledge. It's a mistake to repeat the same process and expect the results to change.

From the rear of the pack, it's impossible to avoid the concertina effect. I'm quite sure that everybody back where we were, and behind, just thought everyone had "gone early". The pack seemed to begin to accelerate very evenly, so it *felt* like we were off. We didn't realise (and had no way to know) that it was just more squeezing and stretching further up the pack.

Agreed. Enough "spreading the blame". What can we do in the future.

Quote from BenjiMC :

For example while the My3id car was having the lag troubles i was talking with the driver while still on Ventrilo and relaying the information back and forth trying to work out a solution to the problem. It's really as simple as binding Teamspeak to one button and Ventrilo to another.

And What was your solution? You parked one car for repeatedly lagging, but not your teamate?

Also, its hardly advisable to recommend to any driver (especially one with massive lagging troubles) to be on Mulitple communication softwares robbing bandwidth and making a huge ass mess of the server for the other 27 drivers.