You are saying that autoclutch should be removed due to realism. Then say that those without a clutch pedal can use a button as plenty of keyboard and mouse users use a clutch on a key/mouse button. Explain how a clutch on a button is more realistic than autoclutch?
I have a clutch pedal. If I didn't, I surely wouldn't want to be using one hand on the gear shifter and the other hand on a button while steering with my teeth. Ok, that is a bit exaggerated as you wouldn't need to let go of the wheel to hit the button. I'm making a point.
I have very limited buttons on my wheel. I don't want to remove one of my 6 binds to use a clutch on a wheel button. If I did not have a clutch pedal, making me use a button as a clutch is in no way any more realistic than autoclutch.
LOL, no I stopped doing that years and years ago. No need for hydroponics anymore
Seriously, the main heating fuel in populated areas here is natural gas. I don't live in any of those populated areas. Thus I must rely on either propane, wood which is far more work than I care to do, or oil. Actually, I must rely on what the house came with, and that is an oil furnace. Ten years ago it was cheap. Now obviously, it is expensive. I have a 275 gallon tank that lasts about a month and a half during the dead of winter time. I just filled up with 205 gallons at $4.19 a gallon I think. Thus, an $860ish fuel bill.
It's of course easy to say "buy a different furnace". But it's not so easy to count out the cash to do that for a $4-5000 furnace. Thus you have the option of paying interest forever with a monthly payment that isn't available in the budget either. It's easier to shuffle monthly bills around to pay for the fuel 3 times a year than it is to be forced to shuffle monthly bills around for a lower bill on new equipment, but do it 12 months a year. though, it was much easier in the past recent years as well. The price has nearly doubled every year these last 2 years. What use to be $300 for a month and a half of heat is now $800.
I could do a wood burner. The guy I work with starts in April and spends nearly every minute not at work cutting wood until around November when he has enough to last the winter. He's nice and warm, but then has no time spent with his family for dinner, kid's baseball games, vacations, any other work around the house that needs done, etc. All time is spent cutting wood to prepare for winter.
Also, you need something to haul the wood, so that puts more money into it. I can't load a day's worth of wood up in my Altima to take home to cut, LOL.
This was only a hypothetical, I was refered to blip-removal.
After that, this was one big rolling snowball...
Edit:
Of course there are slums. Of course it's not that everyone has a job. Depends on a situation. Sure, people in the slums are not to blame for their situation. However, England is not very poor country, am I right? If someone has taken the wrong education (Or not education at all) and now is working with low-pay, who is to blame?
Really, if someone self-studied as a car mechanic and works long hours and gets really low salary, it is his choice. He had a chance to study something else, also. Depends on his merits, he could now be a lawyer or a doctor (If he is intelligent enough, and/or studies hard. And if not, "life isn't fair").
Where should I travel so I could open my eyes? To some poor country, or somewhere where 98% of the population does all the work so 2% don't have to, or maybe to England?
Just one quick check on Google shows you the situation.
The UK is considered a 'rich' nation, yet 25% of our inhabitants live in poverty.
I'm sure those 10.5 million people in the underlined section below all have to blame themselves for 'taking the wrong education' as you call it.
This really is my final comment on this anyway. We not only live in different country's ,but apparently on different planets.
Enjoy the facts about living in our wonderful rich land.
"Just under 1 in 4 people in the UK - or nearly 13 million people - live in poverty, according to the latest figures. This includes nearly 1 in 3 children, almost 4 million
What is the UK definition of poverty?
Poverty is measured here as below 60 per cent of contemporary median net disposable income in 2000/01. This is the 'poverty line' which has been accepted recently across the European Union to measure the extent of poverty in member states; it is not the same as a comprehensive definition of poverty, which includes many other dimensions. These figures look at incomes in Great Britain, after housing costs have been paid, and include the self-employed.
These figures don't mean very much by themselves -- they only refer to low incomes relative to the rest of the population in the UK. They don't tell us much about the many different aspects of poverty and the way people experience it.
What kinds of poverty are people living in?
One recent survey showed that about 6.5 million adults go without essential clothing, such as a warm waterproof coat, because of lack of money.
Over 10.5 million people live in financial insecurity: they can't afford to save, insure their house contents, or spend even small amounts on themselves. About 9.5 million can't afford adequate housing - heated, free from damp, and in a decent state of decoration. The crucial factor about these findings is that they are based on a survey of what the general population sees as necessities.
We also know what a dark shadow poverty casts, particularly over children's lives and their futures. Eighteen per cent of children go without two or more items that the majority of the population says are necessities, such as adequate clothing, toys, or three meals a day."
You can't use the excuse "life isn't fair" because some people aren't doctors or lawyers. Otherwise, who would fix your car when it's broken, using the mechanic as an example...
Maybe he didn't have a chance to go and study something else? He might be hella intelligent, but maybe everyone doesn't have €10k (and upwards) every year to attend college.
Maybe everyone also doesn't want to be doctors and lawyers. Just because someone could afford college to attend as a doctor/lawyer, maybe they don't want to do that particular career. Then they work for less pay, yes, but they are happy with their chosen career...
Yes, life is not fair, but why should someone not be allowed to play LFS because they have been dealt a bad hand?
This was only a hypothetical, originally I was refered to blip-removal. Then someone started to insult me and my ideology and the whole thread wen't off-topic.
Blip and auto-clutch isn't far away from each other. If you use button as a throttle, changing gears will take longer than using axis (You can release throttle only a little bit so you can shift up). So, now controller-users have an advantage over keyboard-users. And that is just about the same thing than G25/911 users would have advantage over other wheel-users (Or if you say otherwise, you are an elitist, and you dislike keyboard users. Reason would be simple: You have a wheel, they don't). But I say again: This was only a hypothetical situation.
There would be absolutely no point in making LFS accessible to so many people by making it £24, and then eliminating the majority of those players by requiring that they all invest in expensive hardware (which relatively speaking, a G25 is).
I hope that those who DO want a G25+ only LFS enjoy single player, because if you think it's quiet online now, just wait and see what it's like when you get your own way.
All through this thread you've been calling other people elitist :/. The majority of sim racers/players have a wheel, but most of them don't have a clutch pedal at the moment. You either cater towards the majority of your audience or make the game seriously elitist and only have the people with the right equipment able to play. Removing autoclutch would disadvantage keyboard/mouse users even more, and disadvantage people with out clutch pedals as well.
Also, the only easy reachible button for clutch on my wheel is the righthand side, guess where the shifter is...
The point got lost somewhere on page 1. The whole thread changed the subject to "nagging about freedom of speech", and it seems I don't have one, only because I don't please an older player...
To say it using as few words as possible: Auto-clutch is just like blip: It helps those who don't have certain kind of controller (In case of auto-clutch it means clutch-pedal and in case of blip it means axes in throttle). And it was completely hypothetical.
As long as other aids that deter from the game aren't intorduced, Auto-Clutch is not a problem. Yes, it does help those without a certain type of controller. But it brings them to the same level as other players...
Apart from drag starts (combination of clutch slip and tyre spinning, I've understood that autoclutch does this well ) I can't see why the clutch couldn't be an on/off button. The game should be accessible for keyboarders of course, but that doesn't require auto blips, cuts, clutches, braking, throttle or steering help...
Nope, you can still play without them. However, they make the driving easier while using "digital" (1/0) controller (Like keyboard). With analog controller, you don't need brake-helps or blips & cuts, because your foot is doing that.
I only have one question and a polite suggestion for you.
Q. Have you ever tried living anywhere else except for Finland?
If the answer is no, (which I strongly suspect is the case), then I respectfully suggest that you don't express opinions about things that you have no experience of. Yes lots of things can be learned from books but some things just have to be lived to understand. For example unless you actually have grown up and studied an tried to find work and live in London or even the UK then you are in no position to tell those that have what they can and can't afford and make assumptions about their intellect and motivations in life. So I suggest you stick to what you know and express yourself within that highly qualified manner.
I didn't knew the situation was that bad in England. Maybe the news are filtering it. Maybe I should start to read more british internet-news so I can learn more about it.
It was nothing to do with freedom of speech or your age.
It was to do with your ignorance and refusal to understand why a lot of people, even hard working people in a so called rich country, don't all have money to throw around on stuff willy nilly.
Hopefully you now understand a little more.
I've learnt something from this as well. I never realised Finland is apparently such a good place to live. I discovered that you are the 4th highest ranked country on the Human poverty Index, where as we are 4th from bottom. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Poverty_Index
Thank to Gezmoor for putting things in a slightly less emotional way
Sorry Gekkibi if you didn't like the way i spoke to you. You are of course entitled to your opinions, but some of them in this case were not only wrong but offensive in some cases. I will always react strongly to some of the statements you made.
I didn't mean to offend you, only try and make you realise that you were wrong in a lot of what you said.
Whether you can accept that or not is up to you, but I too am entitled to my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
Ohh, and the only person in this thread that said anything elitest was you.
Indeed. Maybe I should check the facts before saying something like this.
Maybe that was the reason I said these things. "Poverty don't concern me in real life the way it concerns others".
Apology accepted if you forgive my rude behaviour. It is so easy to say things over the internet. Believe me, I am not like this in real life. And I guess neither are you.
Well, I don't care if there is auto-clutch in LFS. I was referred to blip-removal, because it has affect on people who uses keyboard or other "digital" controller. Maybe not so much than auto-clutch, but still affects. Maybe I said it unclearly, so you misunderstood my point.
Probably the main issue on removing blip was that some keyboards only allow 3 or 4 keys to be pressed simultaneously, meaning that in some situations, a keyboard user can't throttle blip...
Really, concessions should not be given to keyboard users, apart from things necessary in some cases, such as auto-clutch. Also, I've never tried, but I'd imagine using button clutch on a wheel would feel odd and confusing...
I tested it about a year back in Test Drive: Unlimited. It was pretty odd at first, but after couple of hours I adapted to it.
However, because I am searching for ultimate realism, which would be more realistic: Imagine you use clutch pedal (Using auto-clutch), or press clutch button in your wheel? Haven't heard that there is clutch-button in cars in real life.
Yup it's easy to say things, and also to misunderstand things over the net.
I'm guilty of being extremely abrasive at times, that's for sure guilty of not being able to get all that i want to say without it tuning into an essay, so i tend to have a quick rant instead
I use a clutch button for Starts and if i have a spin, but i find it extremely tricky to change gears with it, it feels so unnatural, so i stick to auto clutch for that.
I think this is the real crux of the matter, some of us just aren't that bothered about ultimate realism. Some of us are here for the great online racing aspect of the game. Sure realism adds to it, the physics make it fun, I proberly wouldn't play if it wasn't a sim. But it isn't the be all and end all of everything.
Pick up races aren't very real, but we have them, having a league race including qualifing taking 2 hours (depending on the race lenth) isn't very real. Theres no race weekends. Mainly because that would detract from the racing.
Autoclutch brings people without a clutch up to the same level as people who have a clutch, with a little less control and according to some easier to burn up the clutch.
Basicly I feel there has to be a cutoff point, where realism has to take a back seat to gameplay. Because at the end of the day it is a video game, no matter how you look at it.
Removing auto-cut and auto-blip didn't make LFS more realistic, since the players that were truly concerned about the realism weren't using those features anyway. It only affected the players that didn't care about the "ultimate" in realism in the first place.
If auto-cut and auto-blip were giving an unfair advantage, then they should have been tweaked to remove the advantage, rather than completely removed. NFS's Prostreet mangaged to handicap the assists quite nicely, why can't LFS do the same? All other racing sims have assists that allow a wider range of players to enjoy those games, and as long as servers can specify what assists are allowed I don't see why LFS should want to restrict it's potential customer base.
Regarding the cost of controllers, one option players have is to buy a controller with good macro features to re-implement the features that LFS removes, like auto-cut, auto-blip, auto-clutch, which makes removal of those features moot.
