As per title.

Currently if the server has the starting grid line up set to lap time order, (as on CTRA servers), if someone joins after the race has started they can set a quick time and then be at the front of the grid for the next race.

I think this is unfair. I believe everyone, (even the fast guys), should have to start at the back of the grid and work their way through the pack to "earn" their grid position for the next race.

So my suggestion is that LFS doesn't count lap times set by people who join after a race start. Then the servers won't place them in the starting grid of the next race and they'll have to start from behind the racers of the last race.

People who mid-race join will still be able to see their own lap times obviously but the server host software doesn't include them as drivers for the next grid line up.

This concern is specific to CTRA, as they use an InSim app (the X-System) to control the start grid. Bog-standard LFS itself does not take into account mid-race joiners' laptimes, because there's no option to do so.

tldr: should be in CTRA section ;p

Quote from NotAnIllusion :

This concern is specific to CTRA, as they use an InSim app (the X-System) to control the start grid. Bog-standard LFS itself does not take into account mid-race joiners' laptimes, because there's no option to do so.

tldr: should be in CTRA section ;p

I wasn't aware of that. Should I repost it in that section then?

Will probably get moved once a mod spots the report.

/reported

Therein lies another problem. What happens when a midfielder takes out the leaders trying to pass? Sure it could be said that each should give room for the other, and most of the time it happens that way.

But mistakes happen, especially so when a midfielder, who can stay on the track and run decent laptimes, gets frazzled when their mirror is filled with a car that is somehow 2 seconds faster than them. This midfielder than decides to latebrake, overshoots the corner and takes out the guy in front of him.

Currently the most efficient way of limiting wrecking we have found is to keep the fast up front and the slow to the rear. This has the least amount of accidents and the best racing for everyone involved, IE the fast guys are battling the fast, instead of trying to avoid collisions and dodging midfielders.

Quote from Christopher Raemisch :

Therein lies another problem. What happens when a midfielder takes out the leaders trying to pass? Sure it could be said that each should give room for the other, and most of the time it happens that way.

But mistakes happen, especially so when a midfielder, who can stay on the track and run decent laptimes, gets frazzled when their mirror is filled with a car that is somehow 2 seconds faster than them. This midfielder than decides to latebrake, overshoots the corner and takes out the guy in front of him.

Currently the most efficient way of limiting wrecking we have found is to keep the fast up front and the slow to the rear. This has the least amount of accidents and the best racing for everyone involved, IE the fast guys are battling the fast, instead of trying to avoid collisions and dodging midfielders.

Only thing I would like to be changed is the validation of lap records. Atm its possible to do a lap record with a qualy set - joining midrace or doing some slow laps to cool down tyres.
It would be nice to have only real race lap-records -> perhaps only valid if the driver has done all laps and only first lap may be out of 107% of lap record?
That would stop some ppl from just hotlapping on ctra servers.

I think that's a good idea, actually. We run the thing we christened "concurrent qualifying", where your grid position is determined by your fastest lap, but I think for CTRA records, you should only achieve that by participating in a full race.

I'll add that to my to-do list.

Quote from SamH :

I think that's a good idea, actually. We run the thing we christened "concurrent qualifying", where your grid position is determined by your fastest lap, but I think for CTRA records, you should only achieve that by participating in a full race.

I'll add that to my to-do list.

I thought it was already like that :scratches head:

Quote from Christopher Raemisch :

I thought it was already like that :scratches head:

So did I

I'm gonna double-check though

Quote from Christopher Raemisch :

Therein lies another problem. What happens when a midfielder takes out the leaders trying to pass? Sure it could be said that each should give room for the other, and most of the time it happens that way.

But mistakes happen, especially so when a midfielder, who can stay on the track and run decent laptimes, gets frazzled when their mirror is filled with a car that is somehow 2 seconds faster than them. This midfielder than decides to latebrake, overshoots the corner and takes out the guy in front of him.

Currently the most efficient way of limiting wrecking we have found is to keep the fast up front and the slow to the rear. This has the least amount of accidents and the best racing for everyone involved, IE the fast guys are battling the fast, instead of trying to avoid collisions and dodging midfielders.

Unfortunately the argument doesn't stack up. Because the fast guys come on mid race and have to pass slower drivers anyway thus causing all of the potential issues you stated. If anything there is the potential for even worse issues because the fast guy having mid race joined has no right to interfere with anyone in race irrespective of how much faster they are and the person in front doesn't feel compelled to let them pass because there is no blue flag or worse feels harrassed by someone that shouldn't even be contending track position with them in the first place. So when they do cause the guy in front to panic and ruin their race then who wins? The faster guy will go merrily on his way and set their quick lap and gain their grid position at the expense of potentially ruining the slower guys race. Fair? I don't believe so.

I understand what you're trying to achieve I just don't feel that letting drivers who are not partaking in the race join just to set fast lap times in order to be at the front of the grid next race is fair. They are more likely to not pass clean if they're desperate to get a quick lap to get up on the grid and are being balked by a slower driver.

The way I see it, it comes down to priority. Who is the system set up for? The guy who's in a race and is trying to gain places and score license points or just the fast guys no matter what?

Personally I think the people in race should get preference in every judgment call, irrespective of their ability or experience.

Quote from gezmoor :

Unfortunately the argument doesn't stack up. Because the fast guys come on mid race and have to pass slower drivers anyway thus causing all of the potential issues you stated.

Not true. Midrace joiners are forbidden from overtaking ANYBODY. They are not allowed to interfere with the race in progress at all. If they do so and are reported, they will face heavy fines and have even been known to have their licences revoked.

The CTRA rules state:

If you have joined mid-race, you are there solely by the grace of the race marshals. You are forbidden from participating in the current race. You must not interfere in any way with the race in progress. You may not overtake any car that is participating no matter how much faster you are, unless it is absolutely clear that the driver is pulling off the track and retiring. You MUST hold a position on the track that in no way interferes with the progress of cars that are involved in the current race.

Those are the rules. Our system of concurrent qualifying is entirely subject to the behaviour of those drivers falling within the set rules.

I think sorting the grid by lap times is a bit lame. It means you don't have to be able to race to get to the front - all you need is a fast lap. Starting positions should be the previous race's finishing positions, otherwise the whole CTRA points system is basically a qualifying competition.

If this really has been implemented to reduce collisions (as Chris stated above) then perhaps that's why there are so many collisions - because people aren't used to being overtaken or having to overtake.

Part of racing is paying attention to detail. The driver that started the race can easily know if the person behind them is a lapped vehicle by looking at the minimap, or by looking at time differences screen, if the driver does not see that someone is right up their behind on sector times, and there is no blue flag. Then the next logical leap would be to say that this person is a mid race joiner, who may be considerably faster than them and let them by.

Second, if someone makes a mistake because someone is pressuring them, then they deserved to be passed. This is different than the midrace joiner causing contact. Besides, if the driver was truely using his/her brain. They would use all tools available for each situation and see that this person is a midrace joiner and would slide wide on a corner and let them pass.

Personally I have done this on many occasions, both on the receiving and sending end.

I don't see a problem with letting people put fast laps in as a midrace joiner. If people are becoming flustered when their rear view mirror is full, then they are missing a racing skill and have something to improve upon and these instances should be used as training exercises in maintaining a person's cool while pressured.

Ok, these two totally different points of view from two CTRA admins is somewhat worrying to me. (Please correct me if I'm wrong about Christopher being an admin.) I had thought up until now that the position stated by Sam, ie. that midrace joiners have *no* right to pass or interfere with drivers in the race was the "official" CTRA position and was enforced in the reviewing of all reports.
Christopher's comments make me wonder about this.

hehe.. confused me too, but I know Chris upholds the same rules I do and we're very clear on this particular rule, so I suspect he's posting from work, with his head between two very large magnetic coils, and it's coming across wrongly

Midrace joiners definitely cannot overtake. Technically they shouldn't pressure other cars either, but the car ahead should be able to distinguish midrace joiners from genuine competitors and should be able to resist the temptation to drive defensively and risk their own race. I think that's the essence of the intention in Chris's post.

[edit] If a midrace joiner is reported for pressuring competitors, we will pull them aside and lecture them. If they establish this habit, they will ultimately find themselves on the wrong side of the rulebook, and we'll hit them with it. We had hard-cover versions printed for this specific reason.

all i can say about that last comment is that its the most funny thing ive heard in ages

Quote from SamH :

hehe.. confused me too, but I know Chris upholds the same rules I do and we're very clear on this particular rule, so I suspect he's posting from work, with his head between two very large magnetic coils, and it's coming across wrongly

Midrace joiners definitely cannot overtake. Technically they shouldn't pressure other cars either, but the car ahead should be able to distinguish midrace joiners from genuine competitors and should be able to resist the temptation to drive defensively and risk their own race. I think that's the essence of the intention in Chris's post.

[edit] If a midrace joiner is reported for pressuring competitors, we will pull them aside and lecture them. If they establish this habit, they will ultimately find themselves on the wrong side of the rulebook, and we'll hit them with it. We had hard-cover versions printed for this specific reason.

Yes, I was trying to convey that, but it seems I didn't do it very well.

Taking the rule literally Sam is correct, midrace joiners cannot pass anyone. The spirit of the rule, and the reason it was created was to prevent accidents and a midrace joiner passes at his/her own risk.

Sam and I technically did say the same thing thereabouts. I just took a 'spirit' approach to the rule, while Sam was stating the 'literal' meaning.

To be specific, NO, midrace joiners cannot pass anyone and when we receive reports of a midrace joiner causing an incident, they are at fault and will be penalized. This has been from pretty much day 1, but then we can only handle incidents that people report on.

Ten points to Sam for that comment

Throwing the book at someone is wasteful. Much better to hit them with it

Sam

Quote from SamH :

Not true. Midrace joiners are forbidden from overtaking ANYBODY. They are not allowed to interfere with the race in progress at all. If they do so and are reported, they will face heavy fines and have even been known to have their licences revoked.


The CTRA rules state:

If you have joined mid-race, you are there solely by the grace of the race marshals. You are forbidden from participating in the current race. You must not interfere in any way with the race in progress. You may not overtake any car that is participating no matter how much faster you are, unless it is absolutely clear that the driver is pulling off the track and retiring. You MUST hold a position on the track that in no way interferes with the progress of cars that are involved in the current race.

Those are the rules. Our system of concurrent qualifying is entirely subject to the behaviour of those drivers falling within the set rules.

When I've reported people for this, and despite them being repeat offenders, they just get warned (#12394)

i did one once and he was cationed(points penlty)

I never mid-join a race, not even on BnJ. I only leave pits after the race has been ended, and usually then I still stick on pit-area and don't go messing the race (Some haven't finished yet, and I sure don't want to ruin his race).

As with most rules there is room for common sense.

I'm not going to sit behind a UFR in my GT1 FZR just because I midrace joined, that would just be daft. I will however make sure I pass in a 'safe place' giving plenty of room, and know fine well that I'm in for a bollocking should something go unexpectedly wrong. As far as I can recall, I've never had any issues in doing this and will continue.

Coming up on a battling group of cars is a different matter though, unless I can scream past the whole group and well into the distance safely and without affecting them I will just drop back and try to make a gap so that I can get a clean qually lap in.

I ALWAYS jump out of the way if I receive waved blues, and most of the time see the same behaviour when lapping mid race joiners myself. There have even been times, when the server is a bit empty, that I have typed in the chat 'Race Me' to a MRJer to try and make things a bit more interesting.

Quote from SamH :

Not true. Midrace joiners are forbidden from overtaking ANYBODY. They are not allowed to interfere with the race in progress at all. If they do so and are reported, they will face heavy fines and have even been known to have their licences revoked.


The CTRA rules state:

If you have joined mid-race, you are there solely by the grace of the race marshals. You are forbidden from participating in the current race. You must not interfere in any way with the race in progress. You may not overtake any car that is participating no matter how much faster you are, unless it is absolutely clear that the driver is pulling off the track and retiring. You MUST hold a position on the track that in no way interferes with the progress of cars that are involved in the current race.

Those are the rules. Our system of concurrent qualifying is entirely subject to the behaviour of those drivers falling within the set rules.

Those are the rules. Now tell me how many people actually strictly observe them?? (Particularly in RACE 1 and SS 1, especially RACE 1).

Don't get me wrong here, I think the CTRA servers are among the best in LFS and I agree 100% with the rules as they stand, just feel a little tweaking may improve racing. I accept entirely that it's just my opinion and that you guys don't have to impliment any suggestions that you don't feel fit.

Ps - Chris, re the PM. No problem at all, I didn't feel you were, but thanks anyway.

Quote from gezmoor :

Those are the rules. Now tell me how many people actually strictly observe them?? (Particularly in RACE 1 and SS 1, especially RACE 1).

We have quite a few reports in the system relating to midrace joining at the moment, that I am about to launch an offensive on. I'm aware of two in the system from you yourself. I can assure you that nobody who interferes with races after midrace joining will come off lightly.

Quote from SamH :

We have quite a few reports in the system relating to midrace joining at the moment, that I am about to launch an offensive on. I'm aware of two in the system from you yourself. I can assure you that nobody who interferes with races after midrace joining will come off lightly.

I have no complaints in that regards, I think the reporting system works well as far as I can see, (I try my best not to flood the system with every incident and always review and reflect before reporting anyone), and I certainly don't want you guys to think I made this thread purely because of those reports of mine. But I will admit that the whole issue of mid-race joiners is a particular bug bear of mine, (as anyone can tell from half my recent posts :shy.

Of course, as I'm sure you'd agree it would be infinitely better if the system wasn't required because the on track behaviour didn't warrant it. I accept however that that would require more active monitoring by admins on the servers, something that I also realise is hard to do every day at all times of day.

Overall though I would have to say keep up the good work.