Looks like I've not been diplomatic enough key points in the bit which has been quoted twice: "the newcomers playing the part of the passionate LFS'ers and oldtimers often showing up as sour ****s"

Merely pointing out how things sometimes look from the outside, not how they actually are, and the first line in my previous post was about the forum's stats being 'misleading indicators' - that was my point from the start. In the whole mess that some thread actually are, it's easy to mistake the boards for an unfriendly place at first, which gives out a bad impression on how the overall LFS experience might be.

And as good as the first impression is, having to race against an unfriendly or unclean community, doesn't look too good for a prospective buyer as LFS is for more than 50% an online thing.

Quote from Hyperactive :

Please don't refrain from posting examples.

If I was to post examples, I'd link countless threads about the senseless hatred of some racers towards all cruisers/drifters, and others revolving around the boards being a 'bad place' (which I think they are not)

But you've been here for so much more time than me, that I trust you'll understand what I mean without adding the actual links

Quote from thisnameistaken :

I am new blood and I loved that bit about the telethon

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

To a person who actually likes the game, you will buy it/play it for the game, and not for the forums.

Sure thing, and I'd just like if the boards actually looked more like what they really are: a useful place where a lot of cool info about driving and setting the cars up can be found, which can be bloody fun as well.

Quote from MiniVan :

I'm married and have a child getting the fastest track times on lfs isn't my top thing right now

Well i wasn't really excluding anything (at least i tried not to). First things first, i understand and respect that. I also wasn't trying to compare my E-wiener with yours or such dumb thing. What i was actually referring to was the fact that people like you and some others in this and other simular threads, with a rather low milage and a rather low number of races are speaking about beeing bored and this and that needs to be changed/ added...or else. Please bear with me but im somehow unable to understand this line of thoughts.

Perhaps you're one of the kind that, regardless the lack of time, gets or got bored rather quickly (for whatever reason) and my guess is that for you and the people like you, nothing really is going to change that, perhaps not even in the long run. But yeah, i dont know you so i can only guess whats responsible for that, besides the lack of time that is.

Quote from NightShift :

If I was to post examples, I'd link countless threads about the senseless hatred of some racers towards all cruisers/drifters, and others revolving around the boards being a 'bad place' (which I think they are not)

I was simply asking for evidence but you are defenately right about the cruise/drift issue. Just like it was with oval racing a while back, few people used every opportunity to make oval racing and oval racers look bad.I think few people have already left because the drifting abuse there are at times and no wonder really. But as in more broader view, I think the forums are still quite nice place to visit. The one liners alone make it worth sometimes

Quote from 510N3D :

Ok here are just a few questions i’d like to ask into the “complainers” direction.

• When did you joined LFS? (demo, forum, licenced right away, it doesnt matter)
  

• Have you ever considered and even understood the facts that are basically responsible for the rather slow progress lately? (http://insidesimracing.blip.tv ... iganOfLFSInterview436.flv
  

• When exactly did you got bored and perhaps, why in particulary?
  

[Examples]

• Do you think that your motivation went away because you've used the game quite excessively or maybe even for the exact opposite reason?
  

• Or do you think that it never really was your thing after all, no matter what kind of variation you’ve tried?
  

• Was perhaps the lack or even the superior number of good competition the reason?
  

• Have you tried a lot of variations the game offers or where you basically just doing one thing? (hotlapping, curcuit track/ rally racing, oval racing, cruising, drifting or drag racing et cetera (in no particular order )
  

[/Examples]

• Do you think that any significantly changes will bring you back to LFS or even bring back the joy from how it was at the beginning?
  

• In addition to the previous one, do you think that it could be possible or must a requirement to reach a certain stage with LFS once again so that you can enjoy it just like in the beginning?
  

• Do you have still faith in the project and ScaViEr, or do you just follow and believe into yours and/ or others assumptions?
  

• Are these question of any help in any way, perhaps to bring more transparency into your personal situation and maybe even this particual problem?
  

All perfectly valid points. However the real issue as I see it is that nothing exists in a vacuum. LFS is a product and it will always be compared with other products, those of the same type, (ie racing sims), and those that compete to attract you away from that type, (pretty much any game). So irrespective of how good the fundamentals are it just can't afford to stand still development wise, as you can rest assured that the competition won't be standing still.

I come back to my point about the graphics. Just how many of you ever play 2D games? I grew up in the DOS games era and there were a few games I used to just love, but no matter how involving their gameplay was I just couldn't bear to play them now as they are just so dated in comparison with "modern" 3D games. Eventually there will come a point where no matter how realistic the physics engine in LFS is, the immersion will be lost because the visual interface will look so unrealistic in comparison with other products, eg imagine VR games become the norm, will you still think a 2D screen representation of a 3D world will seem "realistic" to anyone then?

Just to clarify, I'm using graphics as an example. The point is valid for any aspect of the games development, content, physics engine etc

Quote from gezmoor :

All perfectly valid points. However the real issue as I see it is that nothing exists in a vacuum. LFS is a product and it will always be compared with other products, those of the same type, (ie racing sims), and those that compete to attract you away from that type, (pretty much any game). So irrespective of how good the fundamentals are it just can't afford to stand still development wise, as you can rest assured that the competition won't be standing still.

I come back to my point about the graphics. Just how many of you ever play 2D games? I grew up in the DOS games era and there were a few games I used to just love, but no matter how involving their gameplay was I just couldn't bear to play them now as they are just so dated in comparison with "modern" 3D games. Eventually there will come a point where no matter how realistic the physics engine in LFS is, the immersion will be lost because the visual interface will look so unrealistic in comparison with other products, eg imagine VR games become the norm, will you still think a 2D screen representation of a 3D world will seem "realistic" to anyone then?

Just to clarify, I'm using graphics as an example. The point is valid for any aspect of the games development, content, physics engine etc

Well as for me, nothing really could drag me away from LFS since it has become a part of my life. That doesn't mean that im not trying other games but still and i guess for a very long time, LFS will remain on my harddrive and even more if its getting an "oldie" (for whatever reason) just like Test Drive 1 or S1 0.5F or something

About the competition part, watch the interview from SRT with Victor and specifically look out for statements regarding this matter. Also, have a look at LFS as it is right now and tell me if they really want to compete in any way. They could of course throw in a lot of content and some bugfixes, call it S2 Final or maybe S3 , make the mob happy and a shite load of money. But why are they not doing it? Because they have choosen a different path, their very own way of developing. I dont know, perhaps such a step is inevitable along the way but it certainly looks like there is still some time for all the other things with a much higher priority to take care of first.

Put yourself into their position for once and ask yourself if you want to get rushed by inpatient people and release an rather unfinished product or something that is certainly not comfirm with your personal ideas "just to make a _few_ more bugs" or do you choose to ingore this awkward circumstance for as long as you think its necessary and then come up with a proper product that perhaps not only blows yourself but also "everyone else" away?

Im repeating myself again and again, feels like going in circles so im not going any further on this subject. (I know, i said so earlier already, but now it really is enough :nod

If people dont read or understand whats been said by the devs themselve about this matter then so be it.

I've added some stuff regarding that matter to my signature and so im done with this once and for all.

/leaves this thread silently

Quote from 510N3D :

...

Impressive psychoanalysis. Something like "Tell me your stats, i tell you who you are." .

I am bored by LFS for a long time now, but i am still checking the forum, hoping that something new is coming up. i am not sure, but i hope my lfs stats can verify that. otherwise i am in a lot of trouble :/.

i am happy that other games keep getting better, maybe that puts a bit of pressure on the lfs development. iracing, rfactor historix mod and gtr evo are pretty good competitors, imho. the biggest advantage lfs has, is it's network code. i think, it's still the best.

i guess you would like to change the "then" in your signature to "than".

Quote from Fetzo :

i guess you would like to change the "then" in your signature to "than".

Why would he want to do that? It wouldn't make any sense then

Quote from obsolum :

Why would he want to do that? It wouldn't make any sense then

you lost me there, i guess you are being sarcastic .

Quote from 510N3D :

If people dont read or understand whats been said by the devs themselve about this matter then so be it.

Well, reading and understanding things that people say is completely different to agreeing with what they say. The devs can say what they like, they can run their development as they see fit, that's their perogative. But other people don't have to agree with any of it, that's their perogative too. If the devs don't want to take on board "advice" given freely on a forum, (some of it by people that probably have a lot more commercial experience than they do), then that's their perogative as well. It's not my business and none of it matters a jot to me, I'm just expressing an opinion as an opinion was asked for.

Like you, I'll continue to play LFS until either

a) I get bored or something else takes my intention instead

or

b) It dies a death and I can't find any online servers to play it any more.

One positive of the limited number of LFS cars and tracks, from this rFactor veteran: A much less splintered online community. It's easier for me to find a quality LFS public race with the demo cars than it is for me with almost any rFactor mod.

rFactor has so many mods and tracks -- and most of the new ones often gain "flavor of the month" status before fading -- that the online community is splintered. Unless you're in a private league, it's pretty tough to find quality races in most mods during evening hours in the U.S.

And again, if you place a paramount on physics and tire models, LFS blows away rFactor.

Take care,
PK

Quote from Fetzo :

you lost me there, i guess you are being sarcastic .

I think he was serious.

"And than more" really wouldn't make sense.

Quote from pk500 :

One positive of the limited number of LFS cars and tracks, from this rFactor veteran: A much less splintered online community. It's easier for me to find a quality LFS public race with the demo cars than it is for me with almost any rFactor mod.

rFactor has so many mods and tracks -- and most of the new ones often gain "flavor of the month" status before fading -- that the online community is splintered. Unless you're in a private league, it's pretty tough to find quality races in most mods during evening hours in the U.S.

And again, if you place a paramount on physics and tire models, LFS blows away rFactor.

Take care,
PK

Up to a certain extent, having trouble finding good players means that there are also good players somewhere. Let's assume that in any gaming community, there's a certain percentage of people with whom it is fun to play. The rest are noobs. Considering that this percentage must be around the same for every gaming community, the more player base you have, the more good players you have (the same rule applies for idiots in a country, the more population you have, the more idiots :tilt.

The problem with racing sims is that they're not incredibly popular, which will somehow limit your ability to find a good racers.

That said, we're fortunate that it's easy to judge someone performances in a racing game. There's a timer that tells you if someone is quite, and a chat log to tell you if they're stupid. In other online games, notably mmorpgs and fps's, it can be more troublesome to tell if somebody really has a clue about what he's doing (although thankfully there's still a chat log to give you an idea).

Something else we can be thankful for is that LFS and other racing sims don't really attract a part of the population which we don't want driving a car (IRL or here). This cannot be said about mmorpgs or fps's, both of which are usually type of games MUCH easier to play and master than LFS.

As to know if it's easier to find a good match in here than in rFactor, I couldn't tell, but what I can say is that LFS has unfortunately a very European based community (no offense, there, of course), which makes it hard for NA players (and I guess people from other parts of the world) to find a good racing server in their peak hours.

Quote from gezmoor :

Well, reading and understanding things that people say is completely different to agreeing with what they say. The devs can say what they like, they can run their development as they see fit, that's their perogative. But other people don't have to agree with any of it, that's their perogative too. If the devs don't want to take on board "advice" given freely on a forum, (some of it by people that probably have a lot more commercial experience than they do), then that's their perogative as well. It's not my business and none of it matters a jot to me, I'm just expressing an opinion as an opinion was asked for.

Like you, I'll continue to play LFS until either

a) I get bored or something else takes my intention instead

or

b) It dies a death and I can't find any online servers to play it any more.

Yeah you're certainly right there to some extent. On the contrary, they have indeed taken many advices into consideration and even a couple of those had been "implemented" but i guess that they aint going to let that happen to the "main core" and this is whats beeing discussed here if im not mistaken.

Quote from Fetzo :

i guess you would like to change the "then" in your signature to "than".

better?

Quote from zeugnimod :

I think he was serious.

"And than more" really wouldn't make sense.

weird, "www.fragmaster.net - more then you deserve." is the signature i see and i think a "than" would be right.

Quote from Fetzo :

weird, "www.fragmaster.net - more then you deserve." is the signature i see and i think a "than" would be right.

FWIW, you're right.

You live and learn. Thanks for the hint guys.

Quote from TAYLOR-MANIA :

1. The lack of communication between the developers & the community.
Look what's happened regarding the VW, it's a perfect example. Now people are pissed they haven't got it yet when in fact the developers gave no impression to have anyone believe that we'd have it anytime soon, clearly saying we may aswell forget about it. But still there's some people who, somehow, feel that it's delayed... well it sucks to be them hey?!

So, if they had no intention of releasing it (in the forseeable future), they why bother advertising it in the first place?

Quote :

I like the not knowing. We know what we need to. We were told what to expect from S2 Final & what's on the agenda... isn't that good enough? What else do you need to know exactly?

Maybe we want to know what's actually going on, what they're working on and what updates they have planned. I see no harm in that.

Quote :

2. The lack of frequent LFS updates & the slowing development cycle.
Perhaps it's slowing down for a reason. Perhaps they're getting all the mundane tidily bits to make S2 Final out of the way... the stuff that if they told the community about they'd complain they should be working on new tracks instead. Perhaps their workload is increasing. Perhaps they're gearing up towards getting stuff ready for S3 like the tools, research, ideas, references or whatever else needs to be done.
And perhaps you should do something else other than waiting for something that you don't even know when or what is being released...

S3 is not going to be developed until S2 is finished, this was said in the InsideSimRacingTV interview (the one with that irritating bald headed American dude).

I'm sure they have all their plans and ideas in place, unless they're doing stuff such as laser scanning some licenced tracks and what-not. (Which I doubt..)

Quote :

3. To combat the prolonged lack of updates people suggest increasing the workforce.
I'd imagine that Scawen, Victor & Eric know very well what they're doing, and it works for them so it works for me. They don't need to be told/advised to employ more staff or face the inevitable death of LFS (dun dun dunnnn!). I think they'd know before anyone else if LFS is facing a certain death, and i think they'd do something to change the tide if that were the case...

Maybe it is. Who knows, more to the point, who really cares?

Quote :

And think about it, why exactly would it matter even if large numbers of long-time players leave LFS?? They've got their money from them & as long as new players are still coming to LFS steadily & even in growing numbers, then there is no problem for the developers or LFS is there?

No offense to the newbies among us, but maybe 6 out of 10 'new' people that join the game have no concept of clean driving, common sense or even a brain.

Quote :

90% of those players leaving have used LFS for a long time indeed & have now grown bored of it. That's to be expected after 6-odd years & that's their problem.

Agreed.

Quote :

But the developers shouldn't change their ways just because a fraction of old-timers are getting impatient. Those players should know by now how LFS is developed anyway.

Again, guess that's right. But it's more than a fraction, many of the regular forum members don't even play LFS anymore, maybe because they don't have the time, but I'm sure some are because of the lack of updates.

Quote :

Those drivers can get up & leave, slamming the door behind them as hard as they want to make it known, but I bet they'll be back eventually. And luckily for them they'll even have some free updates to welcome them back!

They'll likely be back when new cars/tracks/serious features (such as weather, day/night etc) are released. Which kind of is what they're asking for in the first place?

------

Quote :

LFS is nothing but a tool for simracing to me. And it does it's job perfectly well right now as it did do when i first started, only now it's better. So long as there's leagues and people online to race with then LFS is still very much alive to me. Alpha, Beta, Final, whatever, the racing is still there to be had. Obviously improvements are there to be made & extra features/content would be good for everyone, and guess what? It's coming! Can't wait? Then don't wait.

It may be coming, and I'm sure people wouldn't mind waiting if we had a clue what the **** was going on!

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

S3 is not going to be developed until S2 is finished, this was said in the InsideSimRacingTV interview (the one with that irritating bald headed American dude).

That's what the generally held belief is, but I doubt it's 100% correct. S3 will be the next big money maker. I know they say they want S2 perfect before S3 is even mentioned, but I seriously doubt that everything they have done in the years since S2 was released will be delivered to us by the time we get to S2-Final.

As I've said before, if I were the devs I would let sales figures influence my release schedule, and that's what I think they are doing. I'm sure they've got loads of stuff "half-ready" which is not destined for S2, but for S3, and they can release it, or news about it, at their leisure - in which ever way will be most lucrative.

Quote from sinbad :

That's what the generally held belief is, but I doubt it's 100% correct. S3 will be the next big money maker. I know they say they want S2 perfect before S3 is even mentioned, but I seriously doubt that everything they have done in the years since S2 was released will be delivered to us by the time we get to S2-Final.

As I've said before, if I were the devs I would let sales figures influence my release schedule, and that's what I think they are doing. I'm sure they've got loads of stuff "half-ready" which is not destined for S2, but for S3, and they can release it, or news about it, at their leisure - in which ever way will be most lucrative.

If anything, the generally held belief is that there are bucketloads of stuff sitting on the devs' desks, even if scawen has said it multiple times that this isn't the case. Sure there probably are some plans, drawings and stuff about various things thought of but half finished is just so optimistic.

Quote from Hyperactive :

If anything, the generally held belief is that there are bucketloads of stuff sitting on the devs' desks, even if scawen has said it multiple times that this isn't the case. Sure there probably are some plans, drawings and stuff about various things thought of but half finished is just so optimistic.

Half-ready not half-finished

Perhaps I am optimistic in that respect (although not with regard to arrival of stuff I hasten to add!). Perhaps I just give Scawen and Eric more credit than they deserve.

Maybe we should try a bit of reverse psychology.

I don't want any new stuff, and the devs are probably too scared to release anything, what with the new competition and all. I bet they've forgotten how to release content anyway.

Fingers crossed!

Quote from Fetzo :

weird, "www.fragmaster.net - more then you deserve." is the signature i see and i think a "than" would be right.

Oh, I meant the right part of the signature, he changed it now. It said something like "and then more...".

yeah yeah rub it in :sadbanana

At least it's a new topic, not one that is discussed every other month.

Quote from TAYLOR-MANIA :

2. The lack of frequent LFS updates & the slowing development cycle.
Perhaps it's slowing down for a reason. Perhaps they're getting all the mundane tidily bits to make S2 Final out of the way...

Quote from sinbad :

Perhaps I am optimistic in that respect (although not with regard to arrival of stuff I hasten to add!). Perhaps I just give Scawen and Eric more credit than they deserve.

Perhaps you (that's all the LFS-players minus me :razz are really too optimistic, too sympathetic.
Perhaps Scavier found a better way to make their livings. Perhaps they only don't tell the community to make sure some lost souls and optimists buy some S2 licenses...


I'm evil, I know...

Quote from zeugnimod :

At least it's a new topic, not one that is discussed every other month.

Alright, that certainly is something i'll take the blame for on a voluntary basis. :banana: