Quote from Ricerguy :

Just got a random crash, so I thought I'd post this.

Problem signature:
Problem Event Name: APPCRASH
Application Name: LFS.exe
Application Version: 0.0.0.0
Application Timestamp: 4943e997
Fault Module Name: d3d8.dll
Fault Module Version: 6.0.6000.16386
Fault Module Timestamp: 4549bcbf
Exception Code: c0000005
Exception Offset: 00045bd7
OS Version: 6.0.6000.2.0.0.768.3
Locale ID: 1033
Additional Information 1: 34be
Additional Information 2: 930908fa4f3aa3e9b72cbee0cfd38581
Additional Information 3: e490
Additional Information 4: 443ecac083971922dce4d4ee089ff04e

About this one, I've just asked a few questions in the crash thread where two other people reported apparently the same crash.

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=1006454#post1006454

Quote from Christofire :

On closing LFS it crashed. Info:
Appname: lfs.exe
Modname: lfs.exe
Offset: 00151b55

This happened to Samh too - same info as above. We both quit lfs while on track after a race had finished. Sam did Alt-F4, I clicked the Windows Close Program red X.

I didn't have ABS enabled at the time (but I had previously during that session). Sam did have ABS enabled. Going to try to reproduce it reliably - will edit this if I get something.

Edit: Reproducible. Three of us have been able to do this.
Start a race, put either tyre temp or suspension overlays on and then close LFS. All crashes have reported the same offsets up there.
Things that don't cause the crash:
Other overlays.
If you quit before the race starts.

Thank you and well done for finding a way to reproduce it but I can't seem to reproduce it yet.

EDIT : Now reproduced and fixed - http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=1006574#post1006574

I was just using cockpit view, I tried with SHIFT+L and F9, single player and multiplayer, with and without AI (on Blackwood) and LFS exited cleanly each time I pressed the X or ALT+F4.

Please can you provide the simplest possible description : car, track, selected view, selected overlay, any other info?

At least the crash address is inside the LFS module in this case so I have a clue where to start looking, but it would be a lot easier if I could catch it in the debugger.

Quote from nesrulz :

Same here...





Or that's not a BUG?

yes, it´s a bug, but my question is: what is the numberplate doing there? ^^ if you have a flat, the numberplate would come at the place of the old tire with the Spare Tire

Quote from vari :

Since it's unclear which surface types you mean I tried to find some facts. I wouldn't make generalisations perhaps implying that it should be so in LFS.

This report was made ten years ago. Attached is the summary.

Yes, I didn't mention any specific conditions because it didn't have any relevance to lfs or to this conversation. I was simply pointing out the principle behind abs design, while understanding it doesn't shorten your braking distance in all conditions. The discussion shouldn't be about abs benefits on different surfaces, that's offtopic. The focus should be on whether we need abs in the game at all and if so, is the current abs operation in patch z4 what we want see in the final patch. Do we really want to make this game about road safety or should racing be the priority?

Quote from offtopic :

Tekniikan Maailma 7/2005, page 150, found the following in their tests:
Test car VW Golf 1.6 FSI '05, using Continental ContiVikingContact 3 and Nokian Hakkapeliitta 4(studded)
With studded winter tyres on asphalt, snow and ice braking distances are as follows:
locked: 47m, 57m, 230m
threshold braking(no abs): 38m, 62m, 191m
threshold braking(abs): 40m, 66m, 221m
abs: 35m, 68m, 237m

With non-studded winter tyres results were:
locked: 45m, 53m, 255m
threshold braking(no abs): 37m, 59m, 295m
abs: 32m, 64m, 404m

On loose surfaces results would be similar.

I also went through that test you posted, the methods how the test was performed are very questionable.
A few things that bothered me:
3.1 Test Vehicles
"Eight test vehicles were purchased or leased from central ohio automobile dealerships. Seven were obtained from used car lots, and one from a dealership's pool car fleet."
"The tires on each test vehicle were steel belted radials. Each set was inspected and found to be in acceptable condition and of the sizes specified by manufacturers."
"The brakepads, rotors, drums and shoes were tested in 'as is' condition unless it was necessary to replace them(e.g., one vehicle's rear brake pads wre worn past their wear limits)"

Car manufacturers or models aren't mentioned either, just the model year.
Call me a sceptic, but a test conducted with multiple cars and their tires and brake components tested 'as is' isn't very scientific. Just the tires and how old/worn they are can make a big difference, especially in wet conditions. Multiple other things could have altered the results: suspension geometry, wear of brake components to name a few.

A proper test would use a single vehicle and disclose it's make, tyres used and other relevant data regarding the test. A controlled test environment includes the vehicle and all components related to it.

Quote from Scawen :

Please can you provide the simplest possible description : car, track, selected view, selected overlay, any other info?

Chris is driving to Aberdeen so probably won't see this until tonight.

I can reliably invoke a crash if I use F9 or F10 overlay and exit from an online race using Alt+F4.

Tested so far:
Cars: FXO, RB4, XFR, XRT, FO8
Tracks: SO1, AS1, FE1, WE1
View: Cockpit, real gauges and mirrors
Overlays: F9, F10
Server host: 0.5Z

AOI:
Specifically, the crash doesn't happen if you exit a race before the minimap appears. There is a window of second or so between the lights going green and the minimap appearing. I get a clean exit until AND after the lights go green, but LFS crashes if I wait until the minimap appears and then exit.

All crashes happen when either F9 or F10 are active. No crashes occur if the F9 or F10 overlays are not active.

Quote from SamH :

Chris is driving to Aberdeen so probably won't see this until tonight.

I can reliably invoke a crash if I use F9 or F10 overlay and exit from an online race using Alt+F4.

Tested so far:
Cars: FXO, RB4, XFR, XRT, FO8
Tracks: SO1, AS1, FE1, WE1
View: Cockpit, real gauges and mirrors
Overlays: F9, F10
Server host: 0.5Z

AOI:
Specifically, the crash doesn't happen if you exit a race before the minimap appears. There is a window of second or so between the lights going green and the minimap appearing. I get a clean exit until AND after the lights go green, but LFS crashes if I wait until the minimap appears and then exit.

All crashes happen when either F9 or F10 are active. No crashes occur if the F9 or F10 overlays are not active.

Isn't Fraps running in background? F9 and F10 are keys to start/stop capturing movie and to capture screenshots. I ask it because with FBM@BL1 i get no crash with minimap, on practice or with laps.

Quote from Shadowww :

Isn't Fraps running in background? F9 and F10 are keys to start/stop capturing movie and to capture screenshots. I ask it because with FBM@BL1 i get no crash with minimap, on practice or with laps.

Good point it is running, but no. FRAPS is listening to "#" and Scroll Lock on my config

Also, Reintjan isn't running FRAPs but can invoke the same crash.

Yes, I can reproduce it too.

1) Join a Z host
2) Turn on F9 / F10 view
3) Start the race
4) Wait for the start lights to vanish / the track map to appear
5) Alt+F4

I ve another question: why can´t we turn off ABS during race / driving? Because you can turn it on / off in RL during driving also

Quote from AndroidXP :

Yes, I can reproduce it too.

1) Join a Z host
2) Turn on F9 / F10 view
3) Start the race
4) Wait for the start lights to vanish / the track map to appear
5) Alt+F4

Isn't disassembling denied by EULA?

Thank you - I tracked that crash down, reproduced it, fixed it and now cannot reproduce it.

Will release it soon when I've done a few more fixes and you can verify that.

Quote from Shadowww :

Isn't disassembling denied by EULA?

No. http://www.lfs.net/?page=agreement

How about contributing something useful for a change?

afaik you can (in most cars) only turn of the ESP/Stability control, but not the ABS, these two are completly different systems. My ABS turns of if I apply the handbrake while driving (noticed this last week) tho.

I think he was just joking because of your excellent debugging screenshot!

Now Android, as you are able to get call stacks, please can you reproduce that othe DX8 crash as well.

Quote from ACCAkut :

afaik you can (in most cars) only turn of the ESP/Stability control, but not the ABS, these two are completly different systems. My ABS turns of if I apply the handbrake while driving (noticed this last week) tho.

I'd guess the ABS doesn't turn off, it is just that the sensor(s) that measure the rotation speed of the rear tires reads zero speed (if you have locked the rears) or lowered speed. As a result when you apply brakes the abs doesn't kick in until the fronts start spinning slower than the rears. Or dunno, might be just as wel that abs is turned off when you apply little amount of handbrake...

Quote from plehto :

The discussion shouldn't be about abs benefits on different surfaces, that's offtopic.

This is a test patch thread that has a new implementation called ABS. How is it exactly offtopic to make comparisons to the real device that it's simulating?

I don't think that the intention of this tread is just to discuss what and whatnot should be in but rather how well the changes work, or both.

When you say that a test should be made with one new car I have to disagree as it's known to change from vehicle to vehicle (unless of course it's those specific cars we have in the game). And the fact that you post figures about winter tyres is somewhat amusing since LFS doesn't have those. (Even though ABS seems to outperform on tarmac)

You also mention the fact that the cars were used (in the report I posted). I would probably concentrate more on the fact that they were using more than 10 year old
ABS systems probably making them less effective compared to what we have today.

I don't think that it makes much difference that they used old cars and brake components when it comes to the balance between ABS and non ABS braking. If anything, it's likely to make ABS less effective in my opinion but that isn't a fact, just a gut feeling.

And finally, should ABS be in the game? In my opinion yes because it's a simulator afterall.

Quote from Scawen :

Now Android, as you are able to get call stacks, please can you reproduce that othe DX8 crash as well.

Heh, if only it were that easy

LOL. That said, I just got the DX8 crash randomly. I'm on WinXP SP3 here, so it's not a Vista issue.

Quote from AndroidXP :

LOL. That said, I just got the DX8 crash randomly. I'm on WinXP SP3 here, so it's not a Vista issue.

Lol, Lucky scawen

Quote from Hyperactive :

I'd guess the ABS doesn't turn off...

no, I meant if I apply the handbrake once (drifted through a corner) and disengage the handbrake, the ABS light on the dashboard stays on for the rest of the drive, restarting the motor solves it

LOL I was aware of something going on when I saw 71 people viewing the patch test forum.

Thanks Scavier!!!

2 things.

First, I want to say that it is a trhead to disscus possible problems with new patch, not to discuss if ABS is well or not.

Second, I never understand problems with Add-ons, FZ5 from the begining had Traction Control, you can use or not, I think that the majority don't use in Hotlap or Race becouse it is slower. Make the same with ABS if you like use, if you don't like don't use

Can we get some technical data on the LFS-ABS?
E.g. can someone make a braking test on flat asphalt and read out the braking force? That way we can analyse how the LFS-ABS works and compare it to real life systems.
I've personally worked a bit with the internals of a very recent ABS system and I'd like to see how well LFS implements it.

Vain

I have an idea. Add ABS byte to NPL packet in insim, so leagues can control it? Like restictions

Quote from BoyGTA :

I have the problem with the number plate in lx4 too.

Quote from Nadeo4441 :

I have an idea. Add ABS byte to NPL packet in insim, so leagues can control it? Like restictions

Already known

Quote from Vain :

Can we get some technical data on the LFS-ABS?
E.g. can someone make a braking test on flat asphalt and read out the braking force? That way we can analyse how the LFS-ABS works and compare it to real life systems.

A graphic is in one post in this same thread comparing ABS ON/OFF at max presure and ABS Off at normal pressure.