kaynd: Good post. I hope it will get noticed as it should

Quote from Mille Sabords :

kaynd: Good post. I hope it will get noticed as it should

^^^^^^^^^^^^

I agree with him! kaynd is 100% right leave offline settings (and ingame settings) as they are, but have them restricted by the server to suit whatever criteria the server owner chooses..

No

Some drifters might be offended if you do so

There are no drifters nor racers, only people. And seemingly, the majority likes limited setup options.

Quote :

issues masked by limited setups now than wait another year or two (optimistic guess) for the tyres to be finally fixed.

I'm curious what is wrong with the tires?
I keep seeing this brought up but never explained. I see a glaring problem with the collision detection but the tires feel fine.
If someone could explain I would appreciate it.

Quote from ColeusRattus :

There are no drifters nor racers, only people. And seemingly, the majority likes limited setup options.

lol wtf? so people doing drifting cant be called drifters?

Quote from Toddshooter :

I'm curious what is wrong with the tires?

Have a look here and here.
My posts are only referring to the tire load sensitivity model.
You can find more opinions on that, just by serching the words "tire model" or "tire load sensitivity".

There is also a problem about the effective slip ratio where the tires generate sufficient grip. We have still perfect starts while full spinning the first gear. There is no reason to limit the tire’s excessive spin in order to get a good start.
This does not mean the slip ratio - grip model is all wrong, Still a locked tire generates significantly less grip. But it need’s to be way more refined.

Also I don't see why drifters can't drift with normal sets... even hard track setups can drift ok just by having a bit higher locking factor at the diffs.

Quote from kaynd :

Have a look here and here.
My posts are only referring to the tire load sensitivity model.
You can find more opinions on that, just by serching the words "tire model" or "tire load sensitivity".

There is also a problem about the effective slip ratio where the tires generate sufficient grip. We have still perfect starts while full spinning the first gear. There is no reason to limit the tire’s excessive spin in order to get a good start.
This does not mean the slip ratio - grip model is all wrong, Still a locked tire generates significantly less grip. But it need’s to be way more refined.

Also I don't see why drifters can't drift with normal sets... even hard track setups can drift ok just by having a bit higher locking factor at the diffs.

Thanks swishhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh<<<<<Thats what you guys are talking about going right over my head
I'll just enjoy the game and drive what is given to me.

Quote from Kaw :

lol wtf? so people doing drifting cant be called drifters?

nope. unless they are not people, then yes.

Quote from danowat :

Locked? oh no no no no no.

Restricted in a realistic manner?, oh yes

There is a MOOOHASIVE difference between locked setups and realistically restricted setup options.

Agreed

Yes, with the exception of tyre type and tyre pressure. Setups should be akin to Bob's Road Going or appropriate as per car (XFG is a fun shopping trolley, the FZ5 is a arse-heavy thing which will probably be more edgy to drive).

Quote from ColeusRattus :

nope. unless they are not people, then yes.

that doesnt make shit sense to me. but if it does for you, then have fun with it.

If it's a street car such as the VWS, then it should have limited setups. If it's a race-prepped car then the setups should be more flexible, although realisticly so.

The current road cars in LFS haven't been clearly defined as either though. Either they're street cars with stereos, back seats, and limited setups, or they're race-prepped cars with rollcages, racing seats, and a wide variety of setup options, although what we have now is too fine-grained.

Quote from AjRose :

I think they should have certain settings locked.. transmission ratios mainly

^ What this man said.

I dont think setups should be locked but i do believe that they should have more realistic tuning options like irl.
for instance if you buy yourself a close ratio box irl then it does not come with an infinite choice of ratios not even race box's do that. same goes for springs, antiroll bars & so on.

I think LFS should have a realistic choice of setup tuning options as if you were shopping at your local tuning company. this should apply to all the road cars & then you will have race spec stuff available for the race cars. I know it may sound a bit forza 2 but I think LFS should emulate real life in car setups just as does with its physics, after all it is meant to be simulating RL.

I don't like the idea of having locked setups in general, so I voted no. Since the Scirocco will have a locked setup, isn't that good enough?

However, I do agree that the limits of the setups should be more realistic. Such as having transmission setting changed by having different number of teeth in the gears, instead of generic sliders that can be adjusted by 0.01 steps.

Sure, it would be alright to have locked setups in a couple of the road going cars, but not in all of them. I'd love to have more setup options in our "road" cars in fact, like we did back in the S1 days. For one, I really miss the wheel track setting, which isn't even something difficult to adjust in real life with spacers.

Even though LFS is a simulator, having the ability to create a bit silly setups is something I would not want to have taken away from it. The possibility to experiment with car setups that would take a lot of chassis modifying to be possible in real life is simply too fun just to mess around with every now and then.

I think iRacing has this issue nailed down pretty well. The Solstice has two versions, locked setup for rookie racing and a (realistically) limited setup version. So how about applying this same deal for the Scirocco? A rookie version with a locked down setup, and a realistically limited version with only the most basic suspension settings available.

One possibility would be making the road car setup lock a server side setting. That would seem like the most win-win situation to me, and this option is in quite a few modern racing games already.

We don't need to get rid of the curent freedom regarding car setups.

We just need well made realistic almost locked stock setups for each road cars and the possibility to force it on server side.

Limits to the range of values that can be selected would be a good improvement. I think that those options should be fairly large, but not infinite like they are now. For example, having 8 different spring settings and 16 different damper settings would be more than enough for most of the street going cars.

However, you are all assuming that these cars will all get used in some form of "Spec" class. In other words, the non-stock components are strictly limited. This is often not the case and there is plenty of club racing classes that allow for extensive changes. As long as certain rules are adhered to, things like the type of springs, dampers, camber plates, brakes and even engine mods, are fairly open. That means that there are a large number of possible configurations.

The point that it would suck to have to have different setups for different servers based on server side options is a valid point. However, server side options for limiting car setups are necessary in my opinion. This would give league administrators the option to create different car "classes" or spec series that limits the changes that can be made to cars. For example, limit the springs and dampers to one type like the do for the Spec E30 NASA series here in the US. It would be super nice if these server side options are set, then it will override whatever values that your selected set currently has.

Anyway, just turning off different settings does not make much sense. But limiting the infinite variability does.

Quote from Hallen :

Limits to the range of values that can be selected would be a good improvement. I think that those options should be fairly large, but not infinite like they are now. For example, having 8 different spring settings and 16 different damper settings would be more than enough for most of the street going cars.

That's probably the best option, since those who are good making setups still have some things to play with, while remaining within sensible boundaries. However, I for one have no problem with the infinetly adjustable setups that we have now. More good than harm I say.

16 damper settings per spring setting? This could work… but 16damper settings available for all the spring settings? This is not going to work unless you have 2 damper settings paired with one spring setting… and this gives hardly any adjustability.

IRL some engineers do the R&D, products are made by that and being sold to customers…
That’s not because you can’t put whatever spring or damper you want… but because it’s just inefficient.
Even in these canned products… you have a perfectly matched damper with a specific spring regarding the weight that it’s going to hold, and then you get 8-16 settings to fine tune your damping. If you put different springs you have to re-valve your dampers in order to match with them, so you can again have that small available range of settings to fine tune your vehicle.
Who is going to play that R&D role in LFS? Why I am not able to do that myself?

The stock road car argument does not really stand, because if you are able to change just one suspension spring then why you can't put whatever you want?
If it is just a stock road car as it came from the factory.- then there should be no available suspension settings… Just like Scirrocco.
If it’s all about car classes then let all settings adjustability free and let hosts decide the limitations, as it happens IRL.

Quote from kaynd :

This feature though, should be accompanied with the ability from the server to store a number of setups that any player who joins can choose after these are stored to the apropriate player's folder (like skins do). That’s because getting in a server where all your setups are out of the limits would be a nightmare and a definite no-no for racing.

If hosts want to have racing activity in their servers, they could just provide a base set for each combo. Problem solved…

I think it should be a server option that enforces an "off the forecourt" setup where you are still allowed to turn the TC and ESP (if it has it) on or off as you would in the real car.

Will the car have ESP and independant wheel ABS braking/diff control like in the road car?

Dont think it should be enforced for use across the entire game. It would kill the longetivity of the car. Having to put up with a car that doesnt suit your style can make racing very boring.

Quote from Matrixi :

For one, I really miss the wheel track setting, which isn't even something difficult to adjust in real life with spacers.

Why? Everybody would choose the max value.

Quote from Matrixi :

I think iRacing has this issue nailed down pretty well. The Solstice has two versions, locked setup for rookie racing and a (realistically) limited setup version.

And who exactly would drive the rookie?

In iRacing you are by all means forced to drive the Rookie for a while, in LFS anyone can drive whatever he/she feels like to (=Advanced), if not for any other reason than habit.

Quote from kaynd :

Even in these canned products… you have a perfectly matched damper with a specific spring regarding the weight that it’s going to hold, and then you get 8-16 settings to fine tune your damping. If you put different springs you have to re-valve your dampers in order to match with them, so you can again have that small available range of settings to fine tune your vehicle.
Who is going to play that R&D role in LFS? Why I am not able to do that myself?

The main difference between a full race preped car and a road or track day car is that in a full race preped car the dampers are likely to be much more closely tunned to individual tracks while the road and track versions are only likely to be tunned for overall balance and handeling in a generic sense.

I agree that damper tunning is and would be the biggest potential flaw if setup restricitions are implemented. The way dampers are handled between different cars already is ok imo. Personally I actually would be happy with even more variables to play with when fooling around with setups, but on the other hand I would very much like to see spec type servers that have the ability to limit how a car is setup. This is for a number of reasons - you could create a serries on say the RAC but enforce wieght and power restrictions along with setup parameters to emulate a spec miata cup serries for example. Or a rookie race server like ctra could force a stock setup which just allowed certain settings to be adjusted, etc.

I still think having the ability to have server side setup restrictions and setup distribution is needed and would add to the sim. I also agree it would be ashame to see too much setup adjustment flexability to go ovrall.

I would traditionaly think this type of setup control wouldn't work as sever operators wouldn't use it - but I do believe that that is changing and over time with the development of more public insim apps that are user friendly this type of system would be more publicly supported.

Quote from NightShift :

And who exactly would drive the rookie?

I'd think going forward we would see more and more tear level racing servers and on those severs it would be ideal to implement, you are right though on public servers such a system traditionaly wouldn't work.

Isn't it the case that most people use the popular WR hotlap setups with a few tweaks? So we're really converging on spec racing all by ourselves.