If it was a design decision, then it was a bad one. There are NO sim pedals out there that do a really good job of simulating pressure modulation. It is all travel modulation even if the pot travel gets progressively larger as you get closer to full pedal deflection (use of a cam system like on my ECCI pedals). For the game to arbitrarily decide where the full deflection point is, is ridiculous and speaks of a fundamental lack of understanding on how sims work. iRacing, in this one area, is certainly needing a lot of work. I cannot drive iRacing without having completely random lockups. Same brake point, same pressure works OK one time, but causes unexplainable lockups other times. I can only use about 3/4 deflection on my pedals before I can lock up any car. More than that and I can lock up from top speed.
LFS allows you to set brake friction so that modulation becomes more reasonable and to a point where it is comfortable for most drivers. Yes, it also lets you set it so low that you will never lock up a tire, but you will be giving up seconds a lap if you do this.
And I think this is very important, LFS lets you set brake friction... in other words, changing parts on the car. Then it just respects your calibration settings and lets you, the driver, evaluate how well it works. Yes, the settings are probably too flexible, but that's a small point. Anything too far outside a normal range won't work well anyway.
One thing I do note in iRacing, which I could use a better explanation of, is the fact that at high speeds one can use full pedal travel for a short time before having to back off. On their forums someone explained that this makes sense. I notice it too, and to brake as late as you can you need to employ that technique of loading them right up and backing off again, to the right spot - otherwise you will get a lockup leaving the pedal all the way down. I don't really understand the forces at play there - presumably is the same reason you can slam on the brakes in your car and often just before you come to rest they'll lock up, given equal braking pressure. ... ?
Really? I was under the impression that CST pedals are 100 % pressure modulation, and it seems that lots of professional racers are very pleased with the feel they produce in iRacing. Granted, that's only one high-end manufacturer, but Fanatec will ship the first batch of their much more affordable load cell pedals at the end of this month.
"speaks of a fundamental lack of understanding on how sims work" doesn't make much sense, imho. Sims work the way the designers design them to work. The way LFS does things is not the only logical way, and with pressure sensitive load cell pedals like CST's the iRacing system is probably better.
Overturning obviously, but being smoother will keep your tires in line all the way to the end of the race. I've been in many Radical and DP races and almost 1 time a race I hear about someone blowing a front tire. The best part is when they say "Well.. I didn't lock up the brakes" but they never think of putting so much pressure on the tire by overturning that it will soon lose all its wear.
The aero model in LFS is highly simplistic (works in a way, but not at all correct). Basically it's just a wedge of air missing from the back of a car (directly behind) and it does not simulate any push-pull effect, or even side-drafting. When you get in that big wedge of non-existant air you lose ALL front downforce, which is the reason you get that over-exaggerated push when behind a car in a fast turn.
Hmm.. that's weird. I was just checking how I braked, and it turns out I plant the brake quite a bit (no where near full) and then lift slightly. I don't know if it's a habit or not, but it feels right to me for some odd reason.
In a real car with a decent set of brakes, for example, my 87 BMW 325is, you can definitely go full pressure on the brake from 120mph down to about 40ish mph before you will lock a tire (assuming straight line braking). This of course depends on the type of tire you are using. The stickier the tire, the less the chance you have of locking up. And it depends on the amount of friction the brakes can apply overall (put on a 16 puck BBK and you will lock up easier). This is the part where I have trouble with iRacing. I can't even go full pressure in the Pontiac for a second and I am locked up. In my car, I can go full pressure for several seconds or however long it takes to go from 120 to 40 (it's about 400 feet of travel to do that).
It is more difficult in downforce cars because as you slow, you lose downforce. Since lift is proportional to velocity squared, you lose lift very quickly as you lose speed. This will allow you to lock the brakes much earlier because your brakes will be setup to allow you to brake at the limit from top speed. So, in this case, you are full on the brake for a second, maybe less, and then you have to start easing up on the brake pedal or you will lock up. The closer to the corner you are, the less brake you should have in (which seems counter intuitive since you still feel like you are going too fast, but if you press more, you will keep going too fast).
So, the reason this can happen is that the brakes don't have enough friction to overcome the friction that the tire has with the road. That's why on the same car with the same brakes, harder less sticky tires are easier to lock up than gumball tires. The hard tire has less grip to use, so the brake friction can overcome the tire friction with the road more easily.
The reason you see F1 guys locking up so often is that their brakes have huge friction and the outrageous amount of downforce those cars have. Well, and they are always trail braking going into a corner so it is very easy to lock up the unloaded front tire. But I guarantee you that they do use full pressure on the brake when they initiate braking from high speeds.
the wheels also have quite a bit of rotational energy in them that needs to be burnt off before the brakes can lock which will make a cars ability to lock its wheels speed dependant
although if you own a race car and you cant lock the wheels at speed you should probably fit better brakes
AH, this is what I was getting at. In one sense that sounds breathtakingly obvious and yet the practical effect of that wasn't obvious to me. It's not *just* the friction between the road & tire, it's the energy in the wheel that needs to be overcome. Hurray for a better understand of things that shouldn't have to be said!
He is correct. The CST pedal are true pressure sensitive pedals. I know. I am pushing on the brake and watching my Raw input range go from 70 to over 4000 on my set I got yesterday as I type this. I can hold it at any point in between very easy, but not on one value. There are too many variables for you to hold it perfectly still. Even sitting with no pressure on the Gas, Brake and Clutch all axes twitch a little because the resolution is very high. The brake modeling in iRacing is different then LFS plain and simple. Both in my opinion are really good. But I think that LFS's brake system can make you lazy with the range of brake power that can be applied. Think become adaptable. A load cell will make it smooth, but it takes getting used too as anything. I do believe it to be a better option if you have it available to you. I was able to put some ok laptimes in with POT based brake pedals in iracing. Guys in LFS that are fast in LFS are fast in iracing for the fact that they are adaptable, they are willing to learn and try hard. Fast drivers are that, fast drivers no matter where they are.
As far as I can tell by the tone regarding iRacing's braking system is that only the elite that can also afford 400-700 dollars worth of pedals with load cell technology can be competive at iRacing. This simple is not true and I see it as an excuse. I haven't been able to improve my PB times since I lost my mind and ordered a high end set of pedals.. but I do love loosing my mind in this case :-)... I'm sure I will break those times, but it isn't because of a breakthrough sim technology like loadcell. It will be because of a breakthrough in my driving. Now if I choose not to utilize the tools i have be faster. That is my fault. Not my pedal's fault.
It is very easy to blame something or someone else. But if you look at what your doing incorrectly, that is when the breakthroughs happen.
Hmmm, really? So you want the possibility of a lockup at 150mph?
How many times have you seen an F1 car lock the tires at the end of a long straight just when they hit the brake point? I never have. I think that implies that you can't lock the brakes at speed because if you could, you would certainly see it happen, and you don't.
Plus, I would think that brakes that are capable of locking up the car at speed would be so grabby and twitchy that you would lose most of the feel.
T1 Lock-ups in F1 happen if the driver doesn't feather his braking sufficiently as he decelerates - i.e. if he doesn't reduce the application of brakes as his speed decreases. This suggests to me that the ability to lock wheels increases as velocity decreases. People are using terms here that I'm not fully familiar with, but if the net suggestion is that a sim that allows you equally to lock your wheels at high speed is accurately representing traction under braking.. nuh uh. No sir, not a way. Absofecknlutelynot.
Interesting. Of course it is impossible to tell from the CST website. They say "pressure sensitive", but so is a spring. They do mention load cell somewhere, but they don't show how it works. It is cool if they do actually support pressure. The ECCI system uses a cam system to basically increase the amount of Pot movement as the pedal gets closer to full deflection. So as you press the pedal, the amount of Pot movement increases as you approach full travel. It's a lot better than standard pedals, but still leaves a lot to be desired.
That's not what I am saying at all. I am saying that brake calibration/settings are not setup in a way that enables you to configure your controls so they are usable. You can train yourself to overcome the problems, sure, but why should you have to? It's a problem. It should be fixed.
I don't understand what you are saying. I think that if the car has not an ABS system, it will lock up the wheels at any speed.
The speed has nothing with the capacity of lock up the tyres. If you overtake the grip the tyres will slip. I don't have sure, but it makes sense for me.
I think that if a brake system made for racing cars is strong enough to stop the car in the minimum distance, so, any aditional pressure should be able to lock up the wheels, if not, it will be working under the limits.
The control is given to the driver or to the ABS system.
Thanks for the review. I always end up wanting to buy another advertised racing sim and just to find out there is something I dislike to the point where it is unbearable to play!
I've always seem a lot of hate towards console games on these boards. However I still think some have good feel and make for fun racing regardless (even though I dont have any console's besides a old xbox I dont use much anymore).
Brakes are a means of transferring/converting energy (generally into heat and a bit of noise). At high speeds there is more energy to transfer and dissipate. At lower speeds, brakes are able to do this more quickly because there is less energy to handle. Brakes that get too hot suffer from fade because they can't transfer the energy from momentum into heat - they're already fully charged with energy, like a battery that's been charged can't take more charge.
Expensive brakes are more effective because they get hotter - they have more capacity for heat, or are vented so they can dissipate the energy quicker and thus are ready to receive more energy through braking, sooner.
So, brakes on racing cars are capable of greater extremes, but they are also subjected to greater extremes - braking from 200mph to 60mph is an awful lot of energy, and the rate they can do it is still restrictive. Locking wheels at 150mph would require an immense capacity to transfer energy almost instantaneously (150mph-0= MASSIVE energy). While it may be possible (I don't know), you have a lot of physical restraints in place to prevent it.
[edit] Yes, I oversimplified the cause of brake fade, but it's at least part of the cause.
Right don't get me wrong, I really love LFS I have just driven LFS most of this evening and then gone for a few laps in the Radical at iRacing. There really is no comparison! With the FFB up and on 3 monitors iRacing is in a different league when it comes to feeling like your in a real car, tracks and the FFB that is provided. I cannot believe, infact I don't believe that there can be any arguments about this.
However, although I believe for driving iRacing is without a doubt tops, their set-up mechanism and tyre modelling is ....well lets say not the best and needs a lot of work.
Setting the car for your own driving in LFS is the way to go...if only iRacong could match this!
I would like to explain my feelings and thoughts more but as usual I'm quite drunk and can't be arsed.
For me sim racing is an enjoyable get away from real life...work sucks...I have to think alot...wife sucks , she hates sim racing, one disabled boy and another 14 year old daughter that's a frikin nightmare, although she takes her good looks from her father
Oh man! You get your little candy butt out there and get yourself some company, you have a personality that girls would love. Don't come crying to me because you can't get someone to narc at you all frikin day long!
The grass is always greener...I wish I had more freedom (been tied up for 20yrs) you prbably wish you had someone's spots to squeeze
Tell you what mate as long as you keep that face smiling your god will look after you, whatever that god may be to you!
Nahh, I fart way too much to get into a relationship. You know it's bad when the dog won't stay in the same room. Truth is, I'm enjoying bachelorhood! I like farting way too much
We should stop /OTing before we get flanked by the local fishwives I'll be quiet, I promise!
It simply provides me much cheap, infantile amusement, and when it allows me the benefit of sex that doesn`t involve my hand, as well as long hours attached to my computer without earache, it`s a small price to pay.
Crap. I was fooling myself the whole time. Does not work. Works plenty in LFS. Not needed though.
That right there is 100% Bull... onie. And makes my point perfectly. "Screw them suckers that aint got no good pedals." There is an option in the controller setup that asks, "Use H pattern shifter?" Well how about one in braking setup that asks, "Not using a load cell?" That is a cop out, a lame excuse, and insult to my intelligence and dedication as a sim racer. It does NOT make it more realistic, because in real life I can brake any vehicle without locking after only a few minutes behind the wheel. Of all the things that are certainly not realistic in iRacing, that is an odd one for DK&C to choose to defend in completely the wrong manner.
You know... the Waves API EQs sound surprisingly real and musical. You can use them in the most critical mix to get top quality professional result. If that aint simulation and serious number crunching, I don't know what is. [edit] (Point being, if Waves can simulate that APIs with such incredible accuracy, a slope on controller input aint rocket surgery.)
I believe you. Tonight at Jefferson I saw no smoke. And Jefferson is a locking course. I haven't seen smoke since the latest patch, but my first couple of weeks on iRacing I saw a lot of tire smoke. Maybe they were experimenting. But I saw it.
Both, but what feels really wrong is right in the middle of a corner whilst drifting to the skirt I simply keep neutral throttle and turn the wheel more. Tonight I caught myself using ridiculous gobs of lock. (I won though.)
I don't know what DX does, but it's a matter of slope. Since I've just found out, that DXTweak has no effect on iRacing, I'm going to blame the software 100%. Rather, the design philosophy.
Been using that technique in LFS all along. Also in iRacing. I think I need to make the point that I think the brakes in iRacing are simulated very well. Now if only I could activate them with my foot properly. THAT would be a "sim".
You mean like... putting a damn slope adjustment on your multimillion dollar software?
...or maybe... searching the hardware store for the better part of an hour to find the perfect rubber stopper that needs to be installed and removed daily?
I'm not all that good at math but my ex girlfriend showed me how to calculate a slope one day and it looked really cool. Easy too. (for her)
Get the Radical code and try it free. It's worth the time invested at the very least. A rubber stopper makes it quite drivable. I bought content after two weeks.
I am having great results in setting up the iRacing cars. Maybe it's because I have no idea what I'm doing and I'm using the old "change one thing at a time" principal. On the other hand. Changing what I'm doing with the controllers is working as well or better than setup changes in many cases. Mess with your lock.
Aaaahhh... I do love hacking on Kaemmer. Especially after spending the last three hours in his sim.
Truth is, I'm enjoying bachelorhood! I like farting way too much