Quote from amp88 :

So for the auto clutch system you have to remember to lift off the throttle when you're spinning so you won't overheat the clutch? In the manual clutch system you have to remember to put the clutch in so you don't stall. Surely it's more difficult to recover from a spin if one of your feet is busy holding down the clutch so you don't need to restart the engine? I just don't see how remembering to lift off the throttle is remotely close to having to synchronise 2 feet on 3 pedals and the added difficulty of being able to miss shifts, wrong slot etc. It's also easier to overheat the clutch driving normally with a manual clutch and transmission compared to auto clutch because it's easy to mistime the release of the clutch when you're trying to battle not to lose time.

Oh please, controlling throttle, brakes and the clutch is second nature to anyone who drives a manual car (or has enough time in LFS doing the same). Don't try to tell me that you have to actually think "OK I'm spinning... I should push the clutch in! Left foot go down now!" I suppose that my argument works best for people who don't use their feet to control throttle.

Also when you spin you push the clutch in and release the throttle, right? The auto-clutch does what you do instinctively, but of its own accord. I might drop the clutch sooner coming out of the spin if I had a clutch pedal compared to how long it takes the auto-clutch to do the same task. This can also cause some heat issues.

Is overheating the clutch in race conditions really an issue for you? Or is it something you're just bringing up that doesn't really have any bearing on 99% of the races you run in?

I understand that LFS is a sim, but some people are taking it too far. No matter what you call it, it is still a video game played on a computer. Realism to the point of excluding people who are less fortunate is more damaging than it is good for the game. Giving people the option to exclude such people on a whim seems very silly. I race with/against a mouse user who can beat me, but my first thought is not "wow he shouldn't be allowed to race with me, he doesn't even have analog throttle/brake input", it's "argh, I'll get him next time!!"

Some methods of input have slight advantages or disadvantages, more or less control, a few extra things to go wrong, but somehow it seems to be wheel users who are least surprising when they're competative, even with all their extra burdens they must carry with them. If I manage to beat a G25 user it's not because of some advantage (especially with my gamepad) I have, it's because I'm better than them (or maybe they had some accident ).

Quote from morpha :

Very dangerous generalisation, there are many different implementations of automatic transmissions and I'm fairly certain every single one contains something that's prone to overheat under the right (or rather wrong) conditions. Can't really avoid it when transmitting torque, there'll always be friction.

No car I know of that is automatic involves a clutch.


^me rambling

Okay so I looked it up, if you do overheat an automatic transmission, the connection between the engine and the transmission.. you can't ruin (well.. you could if you took it apart and broke it), but overheating an automatic is same as overheating a manaul.. either way it's the transmission, you'd be overheating the oil in the trans and the gears would grind each other to bits.. but that is AT/MT

Whereas in a MT car you have a clutch, in an automatic you have you have what's called a torque converter which is just a disc .. with a bunch of fluid in it.

Quote from morpha :

If you're not using a wheel, you're not driving a (virtual) car. You're playing a game. We're probably close to driving cars with gamepad-like controls, but not quite there yet. When we do, I will consider "gamepadders" drivers, but only if the car you're driving in LFS has the same kind of controls. Until then, only a wheel-and-pedals-user (or the equivalent controls for disabled people) is a driver to me. No doubt you can operate a virtual car in LFS with a gamepad, it's just not what I consider driving, at least not in a simulation.

So you'll let this sex offender in the pre-school playground or not? What I'm pointing out is that a) people who use different inputs are not necessarily causal gamers and b) people who use different inputs are not somehow a danger in your uber elite G25 only server.

My main point is that your goal (in that post, to keep casual gamers out of serious race servers) really cannot be obtained by keeping non-clutch users out. There are plenty of noobs who use wheels, and plenty of really good, consistent racers who use other stuff. I refuse to believe there is any real distinct correlation at all past the basic fact that the people who are trying LFS out for the first few days wouldn't have paid for a $300 wheel yet.

Quote from morpha :

I'm not pissed at all, I don't even use it as an excuse, just pointed it out to make it clear that, in my experience, H-shifting is in fact slower than auto-clutch sequential shifting.

Well OK then, but I'd be upset if I cared about drag races and the only reason I lost was because I used a clutch and my opponant didn't.

Quote from XCNuse :

Well.. ever take a manual car and go down a hill and shift into lower gears? That's how, I don't need to explain.

I literally facepalmed when I read this. Please go and read a book or a website or anything that defines what heel and toe is. Then come back and tell me how heel and toe increases engine braking.

Quote from XCNuse :

Again.. if you know how to use a clutch properly.. this is your duty, if you feel as though you need to heel toe (which you don't) then learn to shift smoothly. Heel and toe doesn't reduce wear and tear, shifting correctly does. Heel and toe is just an accessory to blipping to reduce wear and tear

I'm obviously talking about racing. When you're threshold braking and you downshift with heel and toe you're less likely to imbalance the car which will give you better control on the transition into the corner. When you're racing every little bit counts.

Quote from XCNuse :

My logic is that I personally don't know anyone that is good at heel and toe, that is what I'm getting at.. if you say you can't do this or you can't do that because you're to busy heel and toeing.. that is YOUR fault, that means you AREN'T good at it, if you were, you wouldn't be complaining about having to do this or that.

The brake pedal modulation whilst heel and toe'ing was actually discussed in some detail during a V8 Supercars race at Bathurst either in 2005 or 2006. The expert commentator (Neil Crompton) was discussing it with one of the most experienced V8 Supercars drivers (Greg Murphy) and because Murphy doesn't use the clutch in his car he's able to left foot brake and keep his right foot free for blipping on downchanges. If you think the difference in brake pedal modulation is caused by inexperience or lack of skill you're sorely mistaken.

Quote from XCNuse :

When..? I have yet to be in a situation that I have to drop down a gear except for going up a hill I drop from 5th to 4th but that doesn't involve braking.. when do you ever in any car have to brake and shift at the same time?

Braking at the same time as downchanging in a car with a manual gearbox is a very common practice. I don't know anyone who doesn't brake and downshift at the same time.

Quote from XCNuse :

Like I said.. these guys know what they're doing, not to mention they are RACING transmissions, the normal H gate cars in LFS.. would not involve a racing transmission, chances are any idiot to try heel toe and screwed it up.. would probably be a $2,000 or more mistake

Yea.. if you're racing.. and have a transmission made for racing. By the way, the time you waste downshifting probably skidding the tires.. is much more time than it takes to downshift in between braking and throttle to shift gears... Unless you have one foot on brake and one on throttle so when you are at the apex your throttle is halfway in as you're letting brake off... otherwise it doesn't work that way.

That YouTube video I linked to above was a road car with a road transmission and the driver was using heel and toe. Was he an idiot? Was he driving incorrectly? Or did he possibly know more than you?

Quote from pik_d :

Oh please, controlling throttle, brakes and the clutch is second nature to anyone who drives a manual car (or has enough time in LFS doing the same). Don't try to tell me that you have to actually think "OK I'm spinning... I should push the clutch in! Left foot go down now!" I suppose that my argument works best for people who don't use their feet to control throttle.

It's second nature but it takes one of your feet out of play. If you don't need to push in the clutch pedal you can use both the accelerator and the brake at the same time. That gives you more options to recover quickly than only being able to use one pedal at a time.

Quote from pik_d :

Is overheating the clutch in race conditions really an issue for you? Or is it something you're just bringing up that doesn't really have any bearing on 99% of the races you run in?

Yep. When I first got my G25 I was doing some TBO races online and I was having problems with clutch heat because I was finding it very difficult to make quick shifts and keep the timing of releasing the clutch perfect. When you're battling against people who have an advantage (i.e. people using auto clutch and sequential transmission) it can be difficult to keep a cool head.

Quote from pik_d :

My main point is that your goal (in that post, to keep casual gamers out of serious race servers) really cannot be obtained by keeping non-clutch users out.

Guess that depends on your definition of serious racers. What I mean is people who want to achieve the closest experience to a real car in their simulation environment, the race results are completely irrelevant to me... well not completely, I'm a reasonably competetive guy, but I favor a fun driving experience over a good result.

Quote from pik_d :

There are plenty of noobs who use wheels, and plenty of really good, consistent racers who use other stuff.

True, but again, that's results, not the actual racing. Many of the "consistent racers" think in lap times, some Oval Junky (no offence, I mean a person on FM's oval junkies server) once told me to turn off FFB because minimal wheel jitter would cost me time... That's not experience or realism oriented racing, that's just lap times and race results.

Quote from pik_d :

Well OK then, but I'd be upset if I cared about drag races and the only reason I lost was because I used a clutch and my opponant didn't.

Well what I'm upset about is people who actually own a G25 and a working clutch pedal and H-shifter with it using the auto-clutch and paddles because it is faster.

edit... nevermind! he just double clutched the on portion I watched.

Also you have yet to tell me about any ordinary person that can jump in a car and heel toe and expect perfect results.. even pros don't get it right every time. But does it matter? Not really no.. A blip is a good estimate, no one is perfect at heel & toe, sure I may be contradicting myself it may seem, but am I really? You have yet to prove to me how more efficient a heel toe turn is faster than not.

Enlighten me more about the purpose of heel and toe on an ordinary car driving down the street.. I fail to see again why you would need to shift from for example 5 to 4 to 3 and even to 2.. when you could save yourself, the clutch, the car, and the transmission by braking like a normal person, slowing down, and going from 5 to 2.

Also there is one thing that hasn't come to mention yet about this, I will make reference to your video of Senna driving that NSX.

NSX is a sports car, you know what, for this instance I will go as far as saying it's a super car in comparison to what we're working with here.

The NSX is far from an ordinary car, I had the chance to drive one once but I declined because that was when I had only driven one other manual car before in my life.

Anyways, we were talking about this on the Mazda forum I'm part of, people who toe heel, and you know what we came to the conclusion...?

It's near pointless for a normal car. Why? Go get in your car and look how far apart your brake and gas pedals are, doesn't matter if its a manual, it can be an automatic car, go look how far apart they are. Can you toe heel that? Sure if you have a foot the size of Shaq. It's stupid and can be dangerous in a real car if you don't know what you're doing since most people can't regulate the brake that way.

Now, looking back at the video of Senna in the NSX note how much closer the brake and gas pedal is.. why is this? Because it is made to do this.. and why was it made to do that? Because it's a sports car, that's why, and even its pedals aren't even that close, go sit in a Ferrari and see how close those suckers are!

Again like I said... the only car you would toe heel in LFS would be the FZR, that is it.

Quote from amp88 :

Yep. When I first got my G25 I was doing some TBO races online and I was having problems with clutch heat because I was finding it very difficult to make quick shifts and keep the timing of releasing the clutch perfect. When you're battling against people who have an advantage (i.e. people using auto clutch and sequential transmission) it can be difficult to keep a cool head.

But how about now? Is it still an issue?

Quote from morpha :

Guess that depends on your definition of serious racers. What I mean is people who want to achieve the closest experience to a real car in their simulation environment, the race results are completely irrelevant to me... well not completely, I'm a reasonably competetive guy, but I favor a fun driving experience over a good result.

So does this mean I'm not allowed to have fun on your server because I wrap my hands around something that's different from what you hold? Are us non-pure drivers not still having a fun driving experience? Is your amount of fun diminished because you raced someone who uses a gamepad?

Quote from morpha :

True, but again, that's results, not the actual racing. Many of the "consistent racers" think in lap times, some Oval Junky (no offence, I mean a person on FM's oval junkies server) once told me to turn off FFB because minimal wheel jitter would cost me time... That's not experience or realism oriented racing, that's just lap times and race results.

What is "many" here? Is it the very top of the top, which in fact isn't really that many? There are people who go to extremes to win at whatever. If turning off FFB saves them a tenth of a second over a race distance then maybe that gives them enjoyment, squeezing out every ounce of speed. Maybe that's their fun driving experience.

Quote from morpha :

Well what I'm upset about is people who actually own a G25 and a working clutch pedal and H-shifter with it using the auto-clutch and paddles because it is faster.

You've got control issues then dude. I think that's what this is really about. You've got control issues and you can't stand that people are "settling" for an inferior race experience.

Quote from XCNuse :

Enlighten me more about the purpose of heel and toe on an ordinary car driving down the street.. I fail to see again why you would need to shift from for example 5 to 4 to 3 and even to 2.. when you could save yourself, the clutch, the car, and the transmission by braking like a normal person, slowing down, and going from 5 to 2.

This is the important part. You think heel and toe is going down through every gear in the gearbox from your current gear to the target gear (e.g. 6 -> 5 -> 4 -> 3 -> 2) whereas heel and toe is simply the act of using the right foot to blip the throttle as you make a shift. You can skip gears on the downshift and still be heel and toe'ing. I think this is what you've failed to understand which has led you to think heel and toe will help your engine braking (going back through the gears will provide more engine braking than going straight from current gear to target gear (e.g. 6 -> 2).

Quote from XCNuse :

Also you have yet to tell me about any ordinary person that can jump in a car and heel toe and expect perfect results.. even pros don't get it right every time. But does it matter? Not really no.. A blip is a good estimate, no one is perfect at heel & toe, sure I may be contradicting myself it may seem, but am I really? You have yet to prove to me how more efficient a heel toe turn is faster than not.

Obviously it takes time to practice the technique and refine it. The average person couldn't care less about how to downshift, nevermind an advanced technique such as heel and toe. However, as I said above, I used to heel and toe on almost every downshift when I drove a turbo diesel car because there was a lot of engine braking. By synchronising the engine revs I could make smoother shifts than just shifting without a blip.

Quote from pik_d :

But how about now? Is it still an issue?

I don't really drive with manual clutch and transmission in LFS any more because it's a disadvantage against a field of people who use auto clutch and sequential. I'd rather be on a level playing field than have the satisfaction of driving 'properly'. That's why I'd like to see an option for banning auto clutch and sequential shifting because it would ensure a level playing field.

Ok wow...I dont think this guy knows anything about what he's talkin about...

Quote from XCNuse :

No car I know of that is automatic involves a clutch.

Oh really?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors ... uckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

Clutches are used, just in a different fashion.

Quote from XCNuse :

but nothing bad that I know of could happen unless you let it sit on the surface of the sun until the metal melts, I mean I just don't understand how you could even overheat the liquid to the point where an automatic .. quits working, it takes a specific temperature to run at, and then there are coolers, I suppose if you did restrict the coolers from cooling the transmission .. well you'd have a problem

Without a beefy transmission cooler, it's not hard to overheat an automatic under racing conditions.

Quote from XCNuse :

Really I am rambling because I'm at a loss as to what could happen to an overheated automatic transmission or an overheated transmission at that.

From what I've been reading, you're at a loss for just about everything in this conversation.

Quote from XCNuse :

Okay so I looked it up, if you do overheat an automatic transmission, the connection between the engine and the transmission.. you can't ruin (well.. you could if you took it apart and broke it)

:rolleyes:

Quote from XCNuse :

Whereas in a MT car you have a clutch, in an automatic you have you have what's called a torque converter which is just a disc .. with a bunch of fluid in it.

Thank you Captain Obvious

Quote from XCNuse :

You have yet to prove to me how more efficient a heel toe turn is faster than not.

The argument is that it tends to be SLOWER and less consistent than using an auto/sequential setup...hence the idea for the whole server option to begin with. If you're talking about two manual/clutch cars, one doing heel toe and another not doing heel toe, there's not really a SPEED difference, but heel toe is for keeping the car stable under heavy braking. The guy not using heel toe is more likely to bog/lock the rear wheels. It can happen when driving TBO cars in LFS if you don't get it right.

Quote from XCNuse :

I fail to see again why you would need to shift from for example 5 to 4 to 3 and even to 2.. when you could save yourself, the clutch, the car, and the transmission by braking like a normal person, slowing down, and going from 5 to 2.

Please...PLEASE tell me you're joking. Ok, I tell ya what. Go hop in the XRT and race on Blackwood. Going into turn 1 in 5th gear, brake where you normally brake but don't downshift. Tell me how it goes for you.

Oh and...you need to get a lot more manual transmission experience under your belt in order to be taken seriously in this conversation.

On another note...my laptimes are still as good if not better than many auto/seq users. Not sure why amp apparently has such a huge problem keeping up.

Okay I wasn't sure if you were one of those people that shifted down each gear or went straight to target gear like me.

Either way.. I still have yet to be in a situation that I have to brake and shift at the same time.
Like I said, it's dangerous if you don't do it properly.

The way I drive is I brake until I have to, clutch in, shift, blip, clutch out, throttle in.

They keep the pedals.. well.. really it's just because of everyone with different size feet, but if you're driving like a hot head shifting while braking.. if you screw up, then you better know what you're doing otherwise you're going to cause an accident and possibly total your car by locking it up, not being in a gear, all because you were to worried about making a perfect shift than steering, instead, your screw up has caused the car to become unsettled, and you're in the middle of a turn.. it's a bad combination.
That is why you don't toe heel in a car, because there is no need to, you slow down, shift, and then put down the throttle.

Why are we talking about every day road driving? Has nothing to do with LFS.

Quote from kingcars :

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors ... uckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

Clutches are used, just in a different fashion.

Oh em jesus, really? Clutches for the orbit gears? Nice try, but that doesn't even get close to the flywheel.

Quote :

Without a beefy transmission cooler, it's not hard to overheat an automatic under racing conditions.

Yea.. and when are you driving an automatic under "racing conditions"?

Quote :

Thank you Captain Obvious

It's there for reference for people following the argument and don't understand, nice try smart allec

Quote :

The argument is that it tends to be SLOWER and less consistent than using an auto/sequential setup...hence the idea for the whole server option to begin with. If you're talking about two manual/clutch cars, one doing heel toe and another not doing heel toe, there's not really a SPEED difference, but heel toe is for keeping the car stable under heavy braking. The guy not using heel toe is more likely to bog/lock the rear wheels. It can happen when driving TBO cars in LFS if you don't get it right.

Yea and the guy being the idiot downshifting before the turn is the one locking up the wheels because that isn't what you do....

Quote :

Please...PLEASE tell me you're joking. Ok, I tell ya what. Go hop in the XRT and race on Blackwood. Going into turn 1 in 5th gear, brake where you normally brake but don't downshift. Tell me how it goes for you.

It goes just like it should, you shift in the deadzone between no braking and no throttle.. it's how it's been going since racing started.

@kingcars, talking about real cars because this would only affect the cars we would be able to drive on a daily basis that have H gate shifters, only car in LFS that has an H gate shifter that isn't typical is the FZR so we're leaving it out.. that.. make any sense?

Quote from pik_d :

So does this mean I'm not allowed to have fun on your server because I wrap my hands around something that's different from what you hold? Are us non-pure drivers not still having a fun driving experience? Is your amount of fun diminished because you raced someone who uses a gamepad?

Why does this have to be so hard? If people want to race other wheel-, or specifically clutch users, they should be able to set this as requirement for joining the race. That's all this is about.

Quote from pik_d :

What is "many" here? Is it the very top of the top, which in fact isn't really that many? There are people who go to extremes to win at whatever. If turning off FFB saves them a tenth of a second over a race distance then maybe that gives them enjoyment, squeezing out every ounce of speed. Maybe that's their fun driving experience.

What is driving to you? How does controlling a virtual car with a gamepad qualify as driving? What is driving? Define it, maybe I can agree with you on your definition, but by my definition, taking realism away also takes the driving away.

Quote from pik_d :

You've got control issues then dude. I think that's what this is really about. You've got control issues and you can't stand that people are "settling" for an inferior race experience.

I don't even know what you mean by that, but if you think I have issues, what do you think about people who buy a G25 to use 270° of rotation, auto-clutch and the paddles? Renders the G25 completely pointless and yes, I do have issues with people braging about their G25 if that's their idea of how it is to be used.
I just support this idea because I think people in pursuit of a realistic simulation should be able to race like-minded people without having to set up an InSim application.

Quote from XCNuse :

Yea.. and when are you driving an automatic under "racing conditions"?

This forum is for improvements for the game, no? A RACING game.

Quote from XCNuse :

It goes just like it should, you shift in the deadzone between no braking and no throttle.. it's how it's been going since racing started.

Hahahahahahahahahahaha, epic fail. I've NEVER seen a race car driver do that.

Like I said, TBO cars are good examples of cars that are more stable with heel-toe. Those are normal cars in LFS.

Quote from XCNuse :

It goes just like it should, you shift in the deadzone between no braking and no throttle.. it's how it's been going since racing started.

Huh? So racing drivers will leave the car in the gear they were in just before the braking zone then brake down to the target speed then change down to the target gear then enter the corner? Next you'll be telling me racing drivers brake in straight lines because it's "dangerous" to trail brake.

Quote from kingcars :

This forum is for improvements for the game, no? A RACING game.



Hahahahahahahahahahaha, epic fail

Not sure about the epic fail part but...

This forum subsection is for improvements and we are making an argument as to why/why not this option should be implemented

Like I said.. who has an automatic transmission in 'racing' conditions..

Quote from amp88 :

Huh? So racing drivers will leave the car in the gear they were in just before the braking zone then brake down to the target speed then change down to the target gear then enter the corner? Next you'll be telling me racing drivers brake in straight lines because it's "dangerous" to trail brake.

A lot of cars it is dangerous to trail brake, why are you going to prove to me that diving into a turn to fast you have to brake all the way through it a good idea?

Sure.. why not, which is more important to the driver, .25 seconds? Or the entire race?

Besides, if you're going to trail brake and make it worth it then your marks have to be perfect, otherwise you will miss the apex and be on the gas later, thus being passed down a straight.

Quote from XCNuse :

Not sure about the epic fail part but...

Epic fail because you're WRONG. Show me ONE video of a race car driver NOT downshifting during corner ENTRANCE. Watch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klMur6TPkrM

See how he downshifts through EACH gear BEFORE entering the turn? I also dont see a SINGLE mid-turn downshift. Yeah...

Quote from XCNuse :

This forum subsection is for improvements and we are making an argument as to why/why not this option should be implemented

Like I said.. who has an automatic transmission in 'racing' conditions..

The people who play this game with auto shifting/clutch enabled, genius.

Quote from kingcars :

Epic fail because you're WRONG. Show me ONE video of a race car driver NOT downshifting during corner ENTRANCE. Watch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klMur6TPkrM
See how he downshifts through EACH gear BEFORE entering the turn? I also dont see a SINGLE mid-turn downshift. Yeah...
The people who play this game with auto shifting/clutch enabled, genius.

We aren't talking about the game anymore, we're talking about real cars... genius.

By the way, show me a video of you doing that in a real car and I will say fine, but once again everyone is showing me videos of professional drivers doing their work, I would like to see you do something like that....

Quote from XCNuse :

A lot of cars it is dangerous to trail brake, why are you going to prove to me that diving into a turn to fast you have to brake all the way through it a good idea?

Sure.. why not, which is more important to the driver, .25 seconds? Or the entire race?

Besides, if you're going to trail brake and make it worth it then your marks have to be perfect, otherwise you will miss the apex and be on the gas later, thus being passed down a straight.

You learn the technique over time so you can make judgements on how deep you can brake, how much brake pressure you can carry into the corner etc. You don't just go out and start braking to the apex carrying massive speed. It seems to me like your understanding of vehicle dynamics, racing techniques and cars in general has come from some 1940s textbook. You really don't know anything about techniques drivers use these days. Please go and read something like Speed Secrets or another book on driving techniques.

Quote from XCNuse :

We aren't talking about the game anymore, we're talking about real cars... genius.

By the way, show me a video of you doing that in a real car and I will say fine, but once again everyone is showing me videos of professional drivers doing their work, I would like to see you do something like that....

Unfortunately for your "real car" argument, good pedal sets for VIDEO GAMES like the ONE THIS FORUM IS ABOUT have pedals SET UP for HEEL TOE. Understand? You think we're going to NOT use heel toe because the car we're driving might not have the exact same pedal spacing? Also, your whole "dont shift until mid turn" idiocy is WRONG, proven in that video. Would you like another video to prove you wrong?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MU1N3IERy6k

See how this guy ALSO downshifts through EACH gear BEFORE each turn? I still haven't seen a single driver keep his car in 5th, go mid corner and drop to 2nd. Try that in a sim (I'd love to see you race in GT Legends) and you'll be doing loops in a heartbeat.

Yes okay.. but I'm saying if you got in a car you've never driven, and expected to make record lap times, it's going to take a LONG time, not all cars can trail brake that well.

But no ordinary person would fly into a turn and hope it trail brakes its ass into the apex

Like you said, it takes time.. yes.. that is what I am getting at, in no ordinary situation would you know this. Do you know how much speed you can take your car into a specific turn and expect to trail brake? Do you think you would even have the balls to trail brake your car? I know I wouldn't. Like a normal person you would be going slow the whole time.

Of course this is for the typical person.. who knows, you may do autox or otherwise in which case this doesn't partain but i'm speaking in the case of an ordinary person.

Quote from XCNuse :

Yes okay.. but I'm saying if you got in a car you've never driven, and expected to make record lap times, it's going to take a LONG time, not all cars can trail brake that well.

But no ordinary person would fly into a turn and hope it trail brakes its ass into the apex

Like you said, it takes time.. yes.. that is what I am getting at, in no ordinary situation would you know this. Do you know how much speed you can take your car into a specific turn and expect to trail brake? Do you think you would even have the balls to trail brake your car? I know I wouldn't. Like a normal person you would be going slow the whole time.

Of course this is for the typical person.. who knows, you may do autox or otherwise in which case this doesn't partain but i'm speaking in the case of an ordinary person.

And this has WHAT to do with LFS, where people are SUPPOSED to push the limits of the cars?

Quote from kingcars :

Unfortunately for your "real car" argument, good pedal sets for VIDEO GAMES like the ONE THIS FORUM IS ABOUT have pedals SET UP for HEEL TOE. Understand? You think we're going to NOT use heel toe because the car we're driving might not have the exact same pedal spacing? Also, your whole "dont shift until mid turn" idiocy is WRONG, proven in that video. Would you like another video to prove you wrong?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MU1N3IERy6k

See how this guy ALSO downshifts through EACH gear BEFORE each turn? I still haven't seen a single driver keep his car in 5th, go mid corner and drop to 2nd. Try that in a sim (I'd love to see you race in GT Legends) and you'll be doing loops in a heartbeat.

Wow congratulations, once again you throw in a video of a professional driver.

Both of you I'm trying to put this very point across: Professional drivers (real ones) Vs Novice Vs those who don't know what the hell is going on!