Quote from maczo :

"being off the racing line affects grip" <-- anyone know what that's supposed to mean? Like better grip on rubber which is on racing line? Or ...?

Yes, and being the marbles off the racing line decreases the grip. I'm surprised at the 12 flat spot points per tyre. Did they mean 12x3 - like the LFS model is 16x3 or is it 12x1 or 4x3?

Quote from maczo :

"being off the racing line affects grip" <-- anyone know what that's supposed to mean? Like better grip on rubber which is on racing line? Or ...?

I assume it means their is more grip on the racing line (due to the rubber) and IRL the marbles off the line can make some corners undrivable off the line, like Gerards @ Mallory can have some suprises in store for those who try and go round the outside and the tunnel @ Monaco (ask Alonso). I thought N2003 had this although LFS has rubber shown visually it does not effect grip because it would be inconsistant between clients and too much for the server to send out.

Quote from ajp71 :

Useful comparison of sims:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_racing_simulators

lol, Scawen could base his to-do list on that, making one uninterrupted green row behind LFS

Well, at midnight Italian time, is your chance to find out.

http://www.netkar-pro.com/eng/download.html

Quote from banshee56 :

Well, now is your chance to find out. NetKar Pro is OUT!!

http://www.netkar-pro.com/eng/download.html

that was a nasty joke :chair:

Sorry, edited post for accuracy. My fingers got ahead of my eyes.

EDIT: Midnight Italian time?? WOOOOOOT :huepfenic Thats 6PM EST in the states. Do my eyes deceive me? Does North America get to test a new car sim at the same time as Europe?? :jawdrop:

Quote from axus :

Yes, and being the marbles off the racing line decreases the grip. I'm surprised at the 12 flat spot points per tyre. Did they mean 12x3 - like the LFS model is 16x3 or is it 12x1 or 4x3?

I suppose you've got to balance the CPU needs and from what I've heard the engine model is more detailed than LFS (which seems very generalised).

But either they have no flat spots across the tyre which makes it kinda dodgy because I think that makes quite a big difference in LFS (if you follow the pressure bars in F9 view when you have a flatspot on an overpressured tyre or something) or they have one flat spot which is 90degrees of your tyre
(which is kinda dodgy)... or, my guess, there is an inconsistency in the way data is presented on that page and nK has 36 flat spots or a 12x3 arrangement.

I think nK has either 36 (12 x 3) or 12 (4 x 3) points, every decent sim since GPL has had IMO readings. Flat spots aren't that important, LFS is the first sim to have them but they never really felt like they were missing from the Papy enigne, so long as nK creates a flatspot patch on a 1/4 of your tire you'd definatley know about it anyway

Quote from ajp71 :

I think nK has either 36 (12 x 3) or 12 (4 x 3) points, every decent sim since GPL has had IMO readings. Flat spots aren't that important, LFS is the first sim to have them but they never really felt like they were missing from the Papy enigne, so long as nK creates a flatspot patch on a 1/4 of your tire you'd definatley know about it anyway

That is - honestly - a quite stupid answer. Because LFS is the First Sim, where you can really destroy your tire a real way with brake-flatspots.

Indeed, just do an emergency stop with a few hot FXR tires, see how many tires you can pop in one go

Lock up in N2003 and you'll still damage and blow tires just as badly as LFS, only N2003 has only got one IMO sampling per tire meaning it can run large (42 car) grids on machines out of the arc, these people really shouldn't be forgotten about as most are still contently racing GPL which they've been racing since 1998.

It's funny how you never think about these things until you experience them. I went and messed around with LFS 0.04Q and I immediately felt disconnected from the car after a burnout because the tyres didn't feel hot. I felt disconnected after going on the grass because the tyres didn't feel dirty. When I locked under braking I missed the twitch in my wheel as the tyre goes over the flat spot (that's another thing that I'm sceptical about in nK - Force Feedback... although naime had great feedback in the Formula car). You don't really feel its lack until you experience it in a great sim where you feel connected to the car. I'm sure the same will go for aerodynamics improvements when they come - the feeling that you get that extra drag when you brake... and the extra grip that comes with the added downforce... Any sim that has good immersion feels stunning. A sim where you feel where the limit is and if you spin you know exactly why you spun, be it setup, road camber, tyre lock-up's, wheelspin, etc. It doesn't matter how much is in there as long as what is in there is made properly and you haven't experienced a certain aspect of physics that is not in there thoroughly in another sim.

nK's FF should be as good as the physics as from what I've heard it just uses the torque on the steering rack straight out of the sim.

I think poor old kunos is going to suffer a class action suit from hundreds of FF wheel owners who had their entire houses shaken to the foundations by the crazy FF

Its kind of good, but there seems to be no damping or cutoff to stop the wheel completely going crazy, so if you flatspot, or even worse knock the alignment of a front wheel out, your wheel will shake you desk to pieces.

I don't the FF in nK. It's too rough and clunky, I had to set it from the profiler (as the FF setting in the game doesnt work!) to 20-40 % but now I can't feel anything. If I set it higher I have a constant feeling that it will break the whole FF motor. illepall

Regarding the tyres... and the whole physics in general... I did not get a good experience. It felt very distant and remote. While, as colcob says, the car does relatively predictable things I don't think they have it quite spot on yet. Tyre physics puts me in mind of an early S1 version with a lot of features strapped to a relatively inaccurate basic equation containing tyre load, slip angle, slip ratio etc. If they can get that equation right it will feel great. This will take them some time though - it took LFS ages as you know (and still isn't there, but from what I hear the patch should sort that out)... plus they have many more features in there now so they will have a hard time knowing where the issue is - it's like trying to tweak 15 variables to get the right thing... good luck. Overall, IMO by no means a match for LFS.

I don't think we ever signed a license so Kunos could just of screwed himself big time

As for the tires they are easy to flatspot and unlike LFS a flatspot makes it undrivable, probably more realistic in that sense tbh.

Quote from ajp71 :

I don't think we ever signed a license so Kunos could just of screwed himself big time

As for the tires they are easy to flatspot and unlike LFS a flatspot makes it undrivable, probably more realistic in that sense tbh.

*sniff* *sniff*
Do I smell someone dodging the issue?...

Netkar pro FF destroyed my DFP, desk and marraige, my wife thought the world was caving in last night when my DFP destroyed itself, my desk fell to bits and I woke her......

It's ok dear, I only flat spotted my tyres............

Dan,

Not entirely related to the tires, but you happen to notice that the suspension arms breaking is not working all that great?

I hit a wall, and most times the wheel just spins like it is on a stick, and the suspension arms are passing through the wheel, and the wheel is spinning and tossing itself in IMPOSSIBLE directions. Not to mention, when you hit a wall and stop the front wheel keeps spinning/rotating, and kicking up dust. Not only that, but if you start to move forward, and the wheel is broken off and laying at a 90 degree angle (perpendicular to forward movment), the wheel starts to spin? LOL. It is all too wierd, and many other parts of that damage just act strange. I once had my left front wheel flop over onto my right side through the cockpit, and it started to bounce and stretch wildly. Kind of buggy damage that is more than just 'on tethers', it is 'crazy tethers' !!!

No wonder a lot of the preview videos were masking some of the damage scenes. A lot of stuff is just embarassing to see when you try and match up with all that hype that was created.

I personally think that nK does get the damage model to be more realisitc than LFS, one hit out like IRL rather than a slightly damage suspension like in LFS. The visual damage model is pretty non-exsistant I don't understand what is so fabulous about wheel tethers (Tristan will disagree), seeing as these cars don't have them IRL seems like hidding something to me.

Also the marker boards are pathetic you hit them and they explode with a little white puff, better than the car going through them and saves calculations for flying boards I suppose.

Still no comment on the grip model?

Grip model is loads better than LFS. There is a defined level of grip, and better yet, the Force Feedback actually gives you a good idea of where the threshold of grip is. While any kind of damage to the car's tires or suspension make the light on my desk fall off, when the car is in good condition you actually can feel the suspension load up and rebound on the FF. When the car passes over its ability to "hold the road" there is a real sense of urgency as the resistance of the FF wheel goes completely slack. Overall 100% better than LFS.

And those complaining about the breaking of the suspension arms, at least they break! LFS barely even shows physical damage on the open wheeled cars.

lol, I was driving like 5kmh, and touched the wall, and the arm broke.

Anyways, the tire model is pretty good. But the fact that the sound and the shifting lag is so damn poor just irritates me, and I think the devs made a mistake when they leaved out so many things from the demo. Like the HUD on the wheel.