I'm tired, and listening to some really inspirational progressive house music. I began to think: "What if money did not exist?" So, in OpenOffice I decided to write down my thoughts.


Isn't there more to life then going to school, getting an education, making money, then later starting a family and owning a house, two cars, and a dog? As much as no-one would like to admit it, our society is filled with greed, and is driven by material goods. Certainly, people who have more material possessions, or more money are considered a higher type of human being then those who have little or no money, or may even be homeless. When a homeless man begs for money from passing government workers and wealthy businessmen in Washington, he is almost acknowledging that he is lower on the proverbial totem pole then the wealthy men that ignore his pleas for money. He becomes like a pet dog. A pet dog does not think for itself, or hunt it's own food. Without it's master, the domesticated dog is likely to starve unless it's instincts should happen to kick in and it finds it's own food. The lower class tends to be like a pet to everyone else. Everyone cares about the homeless man begging for money on the street. But they still feel superior to him. Sometimes homeless people resort to stealing to feed themselves. Can we really blame them? Humans must eat to survive. Is it not instinct to find food so that one doesn't starve?

The existence of money is a major flaw in society. What purpose does money serve other then to isolate humans into groups? I'm not in favor of communism by any stretch of the imagination. Communism is still based on money. Once society can stop with all the killing, working towards the extinction of money should be considered. If there were no money, we would resort to our instincts. Everyone would get food one way or another. There would still be farmers, but the food that they farm would be free in every sense of the word. People would actually help everyone out. It wouldn't be possible for everyone to be lazy, because everyone would do what they enjoy. There would always have to be doctors, and they would have to provide healthcare to as many people as possible. If they didn't, people would start dying and illness would spread. But if that's what happens, so be it. The human race probably won't go extinct very quickly. Say it does, what's the problem with that? There's way more to the world, the universe even, then just us humans. Whether or not there really is a higher power, or a God of some sort, we can't expect to have control over everything. Nothing is random, but all the while nothing is predetermined.

Money leads to nothing but problems. If there was no money, and no-one thought of anyone as being more important then anyone else, but everyone still had free will, society would in my opinion excel. It's hard to believe a society without money would work, or be possible to start at this point, but it really is. All the infrastructure is already built. There are already farms everywhere. The moment money becomes obsolete, those with large amounts of money will have no power. The government will be powerless. There will be no reason to kill or do harm onto others. The homeless and starving will be fed. The ill who cannot afford healthcare will be cared for. Society needs to wake up, and learn that money is a burden to society.

what youre describing is either marxism or anarchy depending on whether or not you allow some enforced law
both have been conclusively proven to not work (although no one ever really attempted proper marxism)

you might want to try moving to a country where people arent quite as moneydriven as in the us though

Well I grant you America is pretty far right and from what i've seen over the years you might find yourself more at home in a more civilised country.

The problem with money isn't society though, the problems it causes aren't all the fault of money itself. See money was created as a solution to the barter economy, and in the barter economy people where still richer than others and still stole. The problem is human greed.

Communism and Marxism fail because they want everyone to be equal but the reality is that some are more equal than others. It's rubbish anyway, we're not all born equal ... we're individuals, and that is a completely different thing to equality.

Money never was the problem, it's a scapegoat. The issue is human nature itself, we're greedy. We are prepared to steal, kill, and beat others down to further ourselves.

Money is just a tool, a tool under the concept of individual procession. The only people living in the world without money (in any shape of form, like sheeps) are only some primal tribes. They have no concept of individual procession, and hence there IS no greed, no fighting over stuff, just everybody working together to get food, shelter, and protection.

However the problem we have is, we already know the concept of procession, so even if you take out money from our system now, it will still reappear in some form or another, people will hang on to oil, gas, land, everything has a value even if there's no more actual money.

It's a pandora's box, and it's been opened. There's no turning back.

Quote from wheel4hummer :

It wouldn't be possible for everyone to be lazy, because everyone would do what they enjoy.

I do quite enjoy just laying around, doing nothing and have occasional sex.

What if very few people are interested in farming? afterall it's a pretty boring and tedious task. And I guess not much people are interested in keeping the sewage system working either.

There are different ways to set up class structures in society than just money. It's a sad fact but humans seem to feel the need to invent and maintain these kinds of divisions constantly. I'm sorry if I can't really share your particular utopian idealism here! (that must be some good music you're listening to ).

I do feel that Western cultures are changing somewhat in their attitude towards money/material stuff. The climate change issue along with other concerns has turned materialism into a bad thing- the opposite message to that which I grew up with in the 80s, which was that materialism/money/success was everything. Really, I find these media/socialisation cues just incredibly annoying. Better to just live your life and stop worrying so much about what the rest of the world thinks you should be doing. There will always be tensions between the individual and the larger community he/she is a part of. Intelligent people will find the balance.

PS, what are you listening to?

Money is not a flaw, it's a darn good solution to a problem.

The farmers need motivation for their job, just because it feeds people doesn't really cut it if they don't have a gun pointing at their head.

If it wasn't for money, they would trade something else or didn't give out food for everyone. If people had to do their job for the sheer joy, we wouldn't have people doing all the shitty jobs that need to be done to keep this place running.

Sounds like a dribble from 5 year old communist planning an utopia. It just doesn't work, I'm sorry.

Money creates equality, it doesn't destroy it. If you don't have money, well, hard shit, do something!

Many people would rather sit on their arse doing nothing than actually contribute to a community by working. Money makes sure these jobs get done. My greater concern is being able to get back on the ladder once you fall off it, it's not easy for a homeless person to get working and earning again. That's where they need help, not money handouts so they can buy food for tomorrow.

Quote from JJ72 :

The only people living in the world without money (in any shape of form, like sheeps) are only some primal tribes. They have no concept of individual procession, and hence there IS no greed, no fighting over stuff, just everybody working together to get food, shelter, and protection.

I'd like to see your evidence for that statement. People have been fighting over territory far longer than over money.

Quote from Bob Smith :

Many people would rather sit on their arse doing nothing than actually contribute to a community by working. Money makes sure these jobs get done.

Which explains perfectly why there are so many people sitting on their arse doing nothing and getting paid at the same time.

Quote from durbster :

I'd like to see your evidence for that statement. People have been fighting over territory far longer than over money.

go see "meet the natives".

These wonderful utopias of everyone helping everyone else, although personally I would love to live in one, wouldn't work because people aren't all the same. I know one or two anarchists (proper ones, not the kind who's idea of smashing the state is to listen to Propagandhi and drink a lot of cider) and they've tried to explain how things would work if we abolished money and government to me a few times. My reply is always 'give it two weeks and people would start complaining when no-one came to collect the bins.'

The reply is "ah, but we'll *all* help to collect the bins" and this is where it falls down because people aren't all the same. Using rubbish collection as an example, there's some people who don't mind handling rubbish bins, and there's people who *really hate* handling rubbish bins - the people who hate it are perfectly happy to give a little compensation (money, or if you've abolished that, maybe some food or clothes or animals) to the people who don't really mind it, and Bang! You're straight back to Capitalism again.

Capitalism, for all it's flaws, is unfortunately the best system in a world where people aren't all the same.

What if money didn't exist?

Then the BBC, ITV and the NHS wouldn't exist, and life would be perfect. We should all become American, as they are the bestest ever.

/intrepid

There would be no internet. We wouldnt be talking right now. No motor sports with no money, thats for sure. No LFS due to that, no LFS forum.

Quote from Becky Rose :

Well I grant you America is pretty far right and from what i've seen over the years you might find yourself more at home in a more civilised country.

What do you mean by 'civilised' society. Some of the most civilised people I know are Americans. Just look at their democratic system. It's far far more advanced and accountable than ours Becky.

Quote from Becky Rose :

Money never was the problem, it's a scapegoat.

Money's major flaw is you can print it. Can't print gold or sheep.

Quote from wheel4hummer :

Isn't there more to life then going to school, getting an education, making money, then later starting a family and owning a house, two cars, and a dog? As much as no-one would like to admit it, our society is filled with greed, and is driven by material goods.

You only have one life, why spend your whole life bullshiting everywhere.
Enjoy yourself, explore the world.

Thats what i would like to do when i get older, go to other countries and explore.
Top 5 exploring places:
New York USA
London ENGLAND
Texas USA
Somewhere in Afrika
Somewhere in Australia too
(Am i oftopic?)

Or just CARE and go ownage in Formula 1

That's it, that made me put Arox in my ignore list.

Quote from Intrepid :

Just look at their democratic system. It's far far more advanced and accountable than ours

That's just a plain bizarre statement to make. It's either a joke or it's so naive that it's beyond any rationale. But then, Alan, you actually believe that ITV is free and that its off-peak £26,000, 20 second advertising slots don't in any way impact product pricing. The US isn't even a democracy, it's a republic. It doesn't even pretend to operate like a democracy, it operates proudly as a republic.

Oscar Wilde said that money is NOT the root of all evil, LACK of money is. In western societies, the disparity of monetary reward definitely drives the winds of change, just like weather patterns are driven by the interplay of high and low pressure systems.

Ditching monetary systems wouldn't result in a better world, though. There were rich and poor people long before the Bank Of England created the first "bank note".. before Caesar's head was first minted onto a Roman coin. Money, as we know it today, is just the lubricant in the engine of society. Drain the engine, the engine will still need to turn. If it can't turn, nothing that happens as a result will be better or more fair than what we have now.

Mobility, not money, is the issue. In a society where you have an "underclass" - which is a layer of society where, using normal societal mechanisms, it is nevertheless impossible to rise/improve its status/situation - you have visible and pronounced problems that are easy to identify and easy to blame on money, even though the actual cause is a failure in society rather than the visible disparity in monies. The US has a high percentage underclass and since Thatcher's 80s, so has the UK. Other societies in Western Europe also have various levels of underclass. While it's not inevitable that an underclass will develop, once it does so it's difficult to resolve and difficult to prevent it from expanding.

It's a complex subject and not one to hypothesize on while keeping it simple enough to be an interesting discussion. I prefer not to venture into fatalism or terminalism, though. It's better to consider solutions that don't presume the extinction of the human race

Quote from JJ72 :

That's it, that made me put Arox in my ignore list.

No u.

If money did not exist, then there wouldn’t be any sort of personal computer to write and distribute your thoughts instantly.

Apart from the smartass statement. “Money” isn’t your problem here.
Even if you where able to produce anything you need to live by your own power, you would definitely need some space to do it… Automatically space has value now and as long as you are next to some other living being that also uses space to make his living, there is a reason for killing to start… The more crowded the place gets, the more like it is for killing to start.
And there is no way to make space disappear in order to solve your problem…
It’s all about the people and how they choose to interact with others.
Money is just a mean to make trading easier. If this didn’t exist, then something else with similar effects would.

Greed is the main problem IMO, and greed is part of human nature, probrably built into us so we could survive in the wild many thousands of years ago.

Human beings will have to evolve somehow to have less greed in order for the world to improve (and the environment most humans live in at present pretty much encourages greed). But sometimes greed can be good, as it can drive ambition and so lead to great advancements and achievements.

Quote from Intrepid :

What do you mean by 'civilised' society. Some of the most civilised people I know are Americans. Just look at their democratic system. It's far far more advanced and accountable than ours Becky.

There's a *lot* of difference between 'civilised persons', 'civilised people' and 'civilised society'

Quote from SamH :

Oscar Wilde said that money is NOT the root of all evil, LACK of money is. In western societies, the disparity of monetary reward definitely drives the winds of change, just like weather patterns are driven by the interplay of high and low pressure systems.

What exactly do you mean by 'disparity of monetary reward'. Someone's value is dictated by the market. If you are someone that can do something someone else can't do you are very valuable. if you are a low skilled labourer doing a simple job most people can do then your aren't very valuable. I can't see a disparity.

Some would argue that bankers get too much money for nothing (I guess this is the disparity you refer to). But this has only happened because the market wasn't allowed to function properly. We have a central bank that controls the value of money from a day to day basis. Money is no longer attached to gold so it's eased inherent monetary restrictions we once had. For example the simple act of one loan expands the money supply hugely - it's called fractional reserve banking. This arguably caused the crisis we are in now. Some would argue we shouldn't have saved the banks. True capatalism would have let them fail.

To address your point about ITV. I am not sure what your trying to say. Are you saying their advertising prices means prices on the high street are increased, and thus means ITV isn't 'free'? I personally don't see a problem at all with how ITV prices it's product - viewers. They are of inherent value to a company wishing to promote it's product. Without these avenues of communication with a potential customer the businesses would fail An increased customer base also allows economics of scale which could see prices DROP.