Scawen, I beg you to think again about allowing uploading hotlaps with layouts.
If one were to be allowed to place cones wherever he wants, what's the point of removing "4" from hotlaps? It is supposed to be just you, car, track and a stopwatch, without any cones standing in the middle of the track to help you get through blind corners (which is my main worry).

When you are training - sure, cones can be of a help, and adding them in hotlap mode would maybe help someone. But why allow hotlaps with those training aids to be uploaded to LFSW? Training is training, going all out for a maximum result is something different.

Quote from Fox 2 :

Scawen, I beg you to think again about allowing uploading hotlaps with layouts.
If one were to be allowed to place cones wherever he wants, what's the point of removing "4" from hotlaps? It is supposed to be just you, car, track and a stopwatch, without any cones standing in the middle of the track to help you get through blind corners (which is my main worry).

When you are training - sure, cones can be of a help, and adding them in hotlap mode would maybe help someone. But why allow hotlaps with those training aids to be uploaded to LFSW? Training is training, going all out for a maximum result is something different.

+1 to this.

Quote from Fox 2 :

...It is supposed to be just you, car, track and a stopwatch...

+1

Only hotlaps that reflect pure clean skill should be entitled to being uploaded to lfs-world.

Quote from Scawen :

While I'm at it, does anyone know of any walls that you can hit hard without triggering HLVC?

Meaning, they have the wrong surface type and can be used to slow you down - if so, it might be possible for me to detect that wall and change its surface type.

Check my SO2R FXR wr. Especially sector 2.
Tbh I didn't do it on purpose. Normally hitting that wall just ruins your lap.

Quote :

With the wheel centre contacts included, it triggers HLVC reliably.

All hotlaps will be removed now? I mean hotlaps with contacts wheel hubs on the wall.

gt2 support the idea. +1

Quote from [Audi TT] :

All hotlaps will be removed now? I mean hotlaps with contacts wheel hubs on the wall.

I don't know about that, but I'll talk to Victor about it.

Quote from Fox 2 :

Scawen, I beg you to think again about allowing uploading hotlaps with layouts.
If one were to be allowed to place cones wherever he wants, what's the point of removing "4" from hotlaps? It is supposed to be just you, car, track and a stopwatch, without any cones standing in the middle of the track to help you get through blind corners (which is my main worry).

About cones in hotlaps, maybe there could be a limited number in official hotlaps, like 30 objects including the start position? I realise hotlapping isn't exactly comparable with something in the real world, but if you did set your car up and warm its tyres in preparation for doing the fastest possible lap, probably no-one would object if you would put a few cones around as well.

I was wondering about a limited number of laps or time, or disallowing pit stops. I think it's a bit boring when a hotlap replay is like all day long and includes pit stops, parking the car and so on.

Quote from Scawen :

I was wondering about a limited number of laps or time, or disallowing pit stops. I think it's a bit boring when a hotlap replay is like all day long and includes pit stops, parking the car and so on.

Makes sense... maybe limited time for 2 laps or something like that, because if you limit the lap numbers they can again go all day long in opposite direction.

Quote from Scawen :

Anyway I have changed it so it goes from -30 to +30 (relative to optimum temperature).

Optimum temperature of knobbly tyres is 40°C. Setting slider to -30 would mean tyres have 10°C on the start, and ambient temperature in LFS is at ~20°C. We shouldn't be able to cool tyres down below ambient temperature

Scawen,

there was good discussion about this 5 years ago: http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=12091

Let me quote myself

Quote from AttaHorse :

I DO agree with the idea of starting hotlap with already heated tyres. That'd save A LOT of time. Look at some KY1 replays. 5 minutes of tyre heating and 1 minute of driving. What is the competition? "Who has more patience to warm tyres perfectly"? Or "who can drive faster"? And there is absolutely no chance to show good time without hot tyres, so you have to spend this time. Not spend, waste. And there is no output of this. None of skills improving. Just boring porcedure. Mmmm.. Would you include washing dishes in "eating breakfast" simulator?

So, selecting tyre temp would eliminate boring useless procedures and save time, only racing will remain. Only hotlapping will remain, nothing else, I think that's he purpose of hotlapping mode.

PS: yes I don't have many hotlaps now but I'm now just out of LFS. I used to have 100+ hotlaps incl fast oval ones.

Not exactly.
5 minutes is not for warming the tyres but because they want thinner* tyre, because is faster like this.
In this cases we will still have some boring hotlap replays.

*its not the right word... i hope you understand what i meant.

Quote from msk :

Optimum temperature of knobbly tyres is 40°C. Setting slider to -30 would mean tyres have 10°C on the start, and ambient temperature in LFS is at ~20°C. We shouldn't be able to cool tyres down below ambient temperature

Not necessarily set the value of -30 degrees

My comments, as someone who has done quite a few hotlaps (mostly to figure out why I'm so slow)...

Heating tyres: excellent idea. Individual temps are still totally realistic (ignoring the teleport to start position of course) but differing temps between inside and outside of tyre are not (think what a blanket would do).

Layout: start position = excellent idea (Westhill comes to mind). Objects other than start position on uploadable laps: I think not a good idea (agreeing with the points made above by others really).

Tyres below ambient: why not? (Have you never seen a fridge? )

Invalidation of existing hotlaps with contact: tricky problem. Might be good to ask the question more widely. I guess it would depend on how many "fair" hotlaps vs. "unfair" hotlaps get wiped out.

And a question for Scawen: why do "thin" tyres enable higher speeds? I've wondered for ages but never done all the testing I imagined I might I was guessing lower rolling resistance as one of a few possibilities... (Or maybe it's entirely non-physical of course.)

And many thanks Scawen for doing this - yes, the boring hotlaps are not only boring to watch but boring to make. I guess we're all hoping that the new tyre physics might eliminate the "thin tyres are faster" issue as well

Quote from Neilser :

And a question for Scawen: why do "thin" tyres enable higher speeds? I've wondered for ages but never done all the testing I imagined I might I was guessing lower rolling resistance as one of a few possibilities... (Or maybe it's entirely non-physical of course.)

Exactly. You've got a much smaller surface area so less friction. It's just like if you're on ice - give yourself a push on ice skates and you'll go miles, but if you're on trainers then you won't go very far at all. Hence also why higher tyre pressure = bigger top speed - the higher pressure opposes the mass of the car on the tyre thus it keeps its shape better, making it thinner giving you a higher top speed

So... the slider wont save us from boring, long-time hotlaps

We need a limit for that. Lets say 2 laps.

Quote from Neilser :

Invalidation of existing hotlaps with contact: tricky problem. Might be good to ask the question more widely. I guess it would depend on how many "fair" hotlaps vs. "unfair" hotlaps get wiped out.

I can run a test on that later - I have a program that can quickly run through all the world records, so I could do that at SO and count how many would be excluded.

Quote from vourliotis :

So... the slider wont save us from boring, long-time hotlaps

We need a limit for that. Lets say 2 laps.

I've been thinking maybe 10 minutes total replay time limit would be good.

Quote from vourliotis :

So... the slider wont save us from boring, long-time hotlaps

We need a limit for that. Lets say 2 laps.

Will be times when removing all the WR, then the fun will be))))
I look forward to this moment

I like the new feature of adjustable tyre pre-heating and I also appreciate the time restriction in hotlap mode as well, which will prevent people from uploading 2 hour long replays

10 minutes seem to be reasonable, considering the fact that the WR on the slowest combo lasts something over 4 minutes, which is ok for (more than) one lap.

Quote from Scawen :

...
About cones in hotlaps, maybe there could be a limited number in official hotlaps, like 30 objects including the start position? I realise hotlapping isn't exactly comparable with something in the real world, but if you did set your car up and warm its tyres in preparation for doing the fastest possible lap, probably no-one would object if you would put a few cones around as well.
...

No cones in lfsw HLs please.
While the pre-warming of the tires was a good concession to make the replays more focused on the hotlap, introducing cones under the same argument is clearly wrong. It would be abused like Fox 2 cleverly noticed.

Also, I understand you plan to mark the start position by some cones or whatever? We would then need to plan about where to put it so it's not on the ideal line for the actual hotlap. Isn't it more prudent to make it invisible? For example similar to invisible route checker that's only visible in shift+u. Something like Hotlap start position where you select place and orientation.

First comments from Victor are :

1) He is one of those who doesn't like the idea of allowing any objects in the official hotlaps (though a start position is fine). I think there is a clear majority on that so let's say that is decided.

I'll finish the code to support that. I think that where it says "HLVC" in the top right it will say "CUSTOM" if there is anything more than a start position added. That automatically covers custom lap timing (for open configurations). It will say "INVALID" if there is no lap timing enabled or you are on a single stage track (Drag Strip).

2) He doesn't like the idea of artifical time or lap limits. But he does support the idea of disabling pit stops. I am happy to go with that. It will reduce some of the most excessive hotlap replays, without us having to decide on a given number of laps or minutes.

I don't think there are any remaining questions, apart from what do to with the old hotlaps that do not comply with the new rules (improved wall detection at South City and no pit stops). The way I'm thinking at this point in the day, I think it would be good to take a tough line and just remove the "offending" replays (those with pitstops or SO wall impacts) probably sending an email to anyone who has a replay removed (when the patch is official).

Quote from Scawen :

I've been thinking maybe 10 minutes total replay time limit would be good.

Kindly sorry, as it can stand as off-topic, but...
This limit and temp. slider will stop super long tyre preparations for one hotlap for sure. People wear out tyres because it gives an advantage in current version of physics. Maybe it is good time to include a note into new physics to make fresh tyres as advantage, not weared out, especially slicks, gravels and rain tyres in future. Just a long range thought.

Thanks for current changes!

Quote from JPeace :

If the Physics are being made more realistic, that will take care of itself..

I hope so

Quote from Scawen :

I don't think there are any remaining questions, apart from what do to with the old hotlaps that do not comply with the new rules (improved wall detection at South City and no pit stops).

I think - let them be,they will be erased with new physics anyway,whenever they're done!

Quote from Scawen :

I don't think there are any remaining questions, apart from what do to with the old hotlaps that do not comply with the new rules (improved wall detection at South City and no pit stops). The way I'm thinking at this point in the day, I think it would be good to take a tough line and just remove the "offending" replays (those with pitstops or SO wall impacts) probably sending an email to anyone who has a replay removed (when the patch is official).

My opinion: remove them

I'm sorry to hear that will not be time limit at hotlaps

Quote from Scawen :

2) He doesn't like the idea of artifical time or lap limits.

Didn't Victor increase the allowed HL file size from 1MB to 1.5MB that can be allowed to upload to LFSWorld just because someone asked for it? My memory struggles a bit atm. I would like to see the max file size decreased to 0.5MB maybe? UF1 AS6 WR replay is 7 laps long and 'weighs' 697KB. The 0.5MB file size limit would be a good compromise to the limiting things, IMHO.

What is the problem with someone taking as much time as they want? It's not called time attack, which is generally a more strict version of hot lapping, so why not let someone take 3 hours if they need it? If someone is willing to take an hour (or more) to get their tires just perfect and they get a WR because of it, then they deserve it for having that dedication. If someone else isn't willing to take advantage of the way LFS' tire physics currently work (faster at the end of a stint than the beginning) then that's their own issue, not the other guys.

Same with pit stops, if you're giving people the time they want (as Victor is for) then why artificially limit things with no pit stops? If a person, in real life, is out hot lapping at a track day they have the option to pit for fuel and keep their worn tires, so why not keep it the same in LFS?

Keeping these things in gives people more options and enables them to go faster by making use of the physics that come with LFS, taking stuff away just makes it so that the people willing to do long stints can't, for what reason other than some people aren't willing to do that so don't want others doing it either?


Edit: No one is forcing people to watch hour long hotlaps. There's even a slider at the bottom that lets you skip around so you can find just the fastest lap. How is this even something worthy of complaining about?

Edit2: The replays even tell you what lap the fastest lap was done on, so you can pretty easily figure out how far to skip ahead in the replay. I really think the people complaining are worried that someone will spend an hour scrubbing tires (this happens in real life doesn't it? Just not the same way) and "steal" their WR, but aren't willing to put in the time to take it back under the same legitimate conditions. As JPeace says, hopefully the new tire physics will be more realistic (really worn tires = slower) so this won't even be an issue then, but it's just as "bad" as people using unrealistic setups to go faster, and everyone does that too.