But it doesn't go without saying that the FZR is the fastest car? And that the FXO just can't cut the mustard?

I know I'm being slighty obstreperous. I too would love to see close racing from a mixed field. But I just don't see the benefit of making adjustements when we just don't know what is coming up in the future.

You could be right. Prehaps balancing is needed but without a Decree Absolute from the Holy Trinity I can't see why it is such a contested topic at this point in development.

It's just not something I see as hugly beneficial at this moment in time.

It'd be hugely beneficial, because it's all about gameplay. What is a game without gameplay?

And it'd be very easy to do too, if they made gradual changes each patch in response to community consideration they wouldn't even need to playtest any changes. Just knock off a bit of performance here (by whatever means), add some there...

Why?, just is the question rolling round my head.

Why would there be any point in having 3 visually different cars, that all perform in a similar manner?.

Car "balancing" should'nt be done by the devs, it should be done in the server by means of ballast, its fairer that way, more realistic, as in real life no two make of car perform the same way, allows for a fairer field of racing as the driver isnt being penilized for driving a certain car, he is being penelized for being faster than everyone else, IMO, that is the only true way of evening out the car classes.

People say the FXO is too fast, fair enough, maybe it is, but look at the BTCC, the Seat is quite a bit faster than the rest of the field, they don't turn round to Seat and say, "you must restrict your car", they stick ballast on them there-by bringing the racing closer again.

Ballast is the way to go, it allows for a more finer tuning of balancing, can help even out the difference between the top drivers, and those that arent so good, and doesnt mean the devs keep having to tweak the figures, which lest we forget, were changed AGAIN in the previous non-compatible patch.

Dan,

Quote from Vain :

@Funnybear: It isn't about what the devs want. It's what the majority of the players want.

...

As said by Scawen "decisions made on LFS aren't made by democrasy". In the end it's all about Scavier what is done to LFS and where it is going.

What surprises me the most is the fact that the GTRs and the TBO have never been balanced in proper way. There has always been threads made about it on forums, and still it has always been left out. I don't know if it has been too busy to concentrate on car balancing but current situation give me the impression that they have pretty much nothing about it. If they even could add the damn ballast thing, where servers could set the weights to each car individually, we could forget the car balancing. But who will put passenger on a FXO for online races and lose positions to other FXOs who don't?

About the 4wd deficency. Imho, the RB4 should defenately be the slowest in top speed and corner entry simply because it weighs the most and has biggest drivetrain losses. After all, it isn't a modern awd car. But it is just plain wrong that the RB4 is always seconds slower than the FXO. XRT should be the fastest because it is the hardest and most challenging of them to drive. While they might never be equal in real life, it really does not need to be like that in a sim. The same thing with the GTRs. The XRR/FZR could be just equal fast, and still have different characteristics. Making equal cars doesn't mean making the cars similar.

I bet the next patch will do pretty much nothing on the car balance issue, but enough moaning and whining on the forum and Scavier might change their opinion about it. Hence, I'll moan in every thread concerning this issue, until I see a fix

Perhaps one of the reasons why they haven't been balanced for now is that the physics will change. With drivetrain (diff) updates and other stuff the difference between them could yet again be altered. Instead of having to balance them every time there's an incompatible patch, it could be that it will only be done when LFS advances from Alpha, maybe only when "Final" is released.

Yea moaning will really help.

I am sure Lord Scavier is aware of the issue (If there is an issue) and as you so rightly pointed out by saying that this is more a benign Dictatorship he will introduce balancing as and when he see's fit. There could be any number of reasons why he either hasn't done anything or won't do anything.

I for one though am quite happy racing one make series or the like. If I really was uber competative then I would plum for the fastest car in whichever class I was driving. But I'm not, I can still have the best races even if I'm driving the slowest. each car offers me something different and I'm all the more happier for that.

-edit- bugger. Missed my slot . . .

Quote from NotAnIllusion :

Perhaps one of the reasons why they haven't been balanced for now is that the physics will change. With drivetrain (diff) updates and other stuff the difference between them could yet again be altered. Instead of having to balance them every time there's an incompatible patch, it could be that it will only be done when LFS advances from Alpha, maybe only when "Final" is released.

Or maybe in S3. Just keep waiting, it may take a while...

If you balance them for 10 lap races (the vast majority) then they won't be balanced for 2 hour races or 24 hour races. If you balance them for 2 or 24 hour races they won't be balance in 10 lap sprints.

I like the idea of server enforced ballast until such time that the physics are way more complete, by which I mean only mild tweaks in any area are likely.

Quote from Funnybear :

At this moment in time Scawen has very defined benchmarks to work from. He can add in improvements and physics updates and get tried and trusted results from cars that he knows. Start rebalancing to make things more competative and you loose that base line. He has differnent examples of car construction and they provide valuable resources in themselves.

come on...
i think theres really no problem for Scavier, certainly less than any other car "manufacturer", to make tests that will show cars' behavior before and after changes.
And i think balancing cars is the same waste of time as making cars that nobody will race online 'cos theyre slower.

Quote :

I don't see anyone complain that there is only one F1 car, or only one Formula V8 or only one Formula Ford. Surely these should have different chassis, different engines. But what would happen if you placed a Ferrari-esk and a Minardi-esk car into the F1 series. Would you still be asking for balancing? I wouldn't have thought so. But by your arguements the Minardi should be balanced to be competative with the Ferrari.

i am sure that at Renault they are not only asking.

Quote :

The cars are what the cars are. I am sure that by the time LFS comes to final release the cars will be more than adequatly balanced.

and thats the point - continuos struggle in real races will not be held in lfs after final release.

Quote from tristancliffe :

I like the idea of server enforced ballast until such time that the physics are way more complete, by which I mean only mild tweaks in any area are likely.

i fully agree with that regarding engine managment

I am trying to search LFSW to get som eonline stats for the different classes. Obviously the majority of the community race FZR at AST/NAT. I have been known to circulate that track myself on a occasion. On Astons open corners and long straights the FZR is the better car for the track. But what about the others.

South City is a bumpy, twisty turny enviroment. Racing on that course the XRR can very compitently hold it's own against the FZR and the FXO is also competative there.

Does anyone know or can show that the FZR is the fastest car on every track. As well as showing that the FXO is the slowest. I'm not after hotlaps. I don't think they are usefull in this excersice. But over a season of races with competent drivers racing a mix of vehicles does the arguement for balancing still hold water?


I'm just throwing this out there. I will continue to try and glean the information myself.

Quote from Funnybear :

I've just been reading the stats on the Website for the GT cars and to be fair The Devs make no bones about the fact the cars are unbalanced. In fact they positivily embrace it.

The FXO is the beginner GT. It ain't going to win races (Their words)

The XRR is better and faster.

But the FZR is better and faster still.

Having read all that I realised that these cars are designed to be this way. Which harks back to my point that they are different cars. Which is the whole point. The FXO was never meant to be competative as it's a stepping stone to the faster GT's.

Which again leads me too that if you want a fair race go one make. I really don't see the problem in doind that and why this percieved unbalanced car thing is such a contested topic . . .

I thought the idea was to move up through the classes. Not move up within a class (at least that's how it works IRL). Sounds like that in reality, we don't have a GTR class. We have an FXO class, and an XRR class, and an FZR class. Which is fine, if that's the case. But lets call it what it is, then.

Direct from the LFS website (bolding mine):

FXO - The FXO GTR is a great car for somebody just getting used to the extra power offered by the GTR cars or for somebody who just wants to have some fun in the GTR class, but if you want wins and don't like long races you have to move to one of the rear-wheel drive GTR cars.

XRR - Is the XR GT Turbo not man enough for you? Slicks, wings, silly power and an angry face, this car has had the works done to it. Nobody knows what the LFS tuning division did to the turbocharger to get double the power out of the engine, but it works, and we are forever thankful. It likes to eat FXO GTRs for breakfast, so watch out.

FZR - This is what happens when a not-so-sane person looks at the FZ50 and says "Mmm, nice, but could do with a bit more power." 130bhp more to be exact. Like the XR GTR, it was given slicks, downforce, gorgeous looks and lightened, but just ended up better.

I can't and wont comment on the GTR's, I feel strongly about TBO balance and only play the GTR's from time to time.

Quote :

Instead of having to balance them every time there's an incompatible patch, it could be that it will only be done when LFS advances from Alpha, maybe only when "Final" is released.

Nobody would mind if the FXO was NOT that well balanced with the XRT, provided it was always the slower of the two. We'd preffer balance, but at the moment the sole purpose of the XRT is to bulk out the size of the initial download...

I dont really care what the website says about the cars, tbh I dont care about marketing proseif there's one thing i've never listened too its marketting/adverts. Call me a communist if you will, but when somebody starts marketting they're either lying or explaining a shortcoming with spin, they're never telling the truth and they're never dealing with the small print.

Quote from Becky Rose :

I dont really care what the website says about the cars, tbh I dont care about marketing proseif there's one thing i've never listened too its marketting/adverts. Call me a communist if you will, but when somebody starts marketting they're either lying or explaining a shortcoming with spin, they're never telling the truth and they're never dealing with the small print.

:biggrinfl

"Its not a bug, its a feature."

intresting thread

i love the FXR and race this the most, i know i am not the fastest, but i do like racing against the FZR`s at Blackwood GP

if you can hook a ride on the back of a FZR on the long straight you can use the 4wd to a decent advantage in places.

i know the FZR is a faster car, but you also need a better driver to control it, why make the FXR faster? its the easy way into the GTR class.

driving the FXR for me is fun, no brainer, the others take a bit more dedication and thought.

I was having a look at LFSW hotlaps (even though I said I wouldn't) and wasa actually surprised to note that the FXR actually holds a few records over the XRR and the although the FZR is faster it's rarely more than a second faster and on a number of track combo's it's less than that.

So whilst the cars do fall into a 'graduated' series the margins are not as large as some people seem to make out they are. In my eyes the margins are close enough to say that they are pretty much perfectly balanced. I'm going of to check the tbo now . . . .

from my experience with the TBO's in the STCC, there are SERIOUS imbalances, just look at the times, i was 0.6 of a second quicker than the WR holder in an RB4 with my FXO!

Quote from Funnybear :

In my eyes the margins are close enough to say that they are pretty much perfectly balanced.

a second of difference and you try to defend the 'balance' of the cars? illepall

I was expecting that.

The FZR is the faster car. Scawen even promotes the fact that it is the faster car. But, In the general racing melee that 1 second difference (And we're including the FXO here) effectily boils down to nothing. It means that you can race the FXO competativly against most FZR drivers. If you can't then you know your up against a truly well setup and raced car.

These cars require work to get the best from them. And I stand by my comment that I will point the fingure at the drivers thant he actual cars for any pronounced discrepancy between cars . . . .

it would be nice if the fzr was harder to use than the xrr... it is so much easier to drive with the fzr.

Quote from Funnybear :

I was expecting that.

The FZR is the faster car. Scawen even promotes the fact that it is the faster car. But, In the general racing melee that 1 second difference (And we're including the FXO here) effectily boils down to nothing. It means that you can race the FXO competativly against most FZR drivers. If you can't then you know your up against a truly well setup and raced car.

These cars require work to get the best from them. And I stand by my comment that I will point the fingure at the drivers thant he actual cars for any pronounced discrepancy between cars . . . .

No

The texts on the liveforspeed.net site are prolly taken from the lfswiki and (the texts should be changed, they aren't up to date and mentioning S1 things certainly makes them even less valid. Rewrite them, Scawen, Vic or Eric,please ) generally are based on S1 and first S2 versions.

And about FXR and FZR. After 5 first laps in LFS you're faster in FZR than you're in FXR. There is no such thing as deserved victory, if you're driving FZR and beat few FXRs. Sometimes even passing slower FZR drivers in XRR is painful, because the FZR is just faster and easier to drive. All in all, imho, FZR needs defenately the least work to get it competitive against the other 2

i think maybe funnybear just likes the advantage the FZR has and doesnt want it to go away

Funnybear, your stance on this issue is somewhat tempered by your repeated comparison of an FXO to an FZR. Yes, an FZR is faster than an FXO. I should bloody hope so. An FZR is also far faster than an FXR, which shouldn't always be the case. It should depend on the track.

But with regards to class balancing in general, there are two sides to the issue:

Side one is that LFS isn't finished yet - there are many more features to be introduced to LFS, for example unique aero characteristics, undertrays, tyre compounds, gearboxes, better differentials, etc. All of these can be used to help balance the classes, and as LFS is in a constant state of development, it wouldn't make sense to fiddle with things now when future developments have the potential to radically change everything.

Side two is that although LFS is a WIP, we're playing it and bankrolling the development of it, and thus we expect the gameplay to be maximised in the short term. This means making the extra effort to balance the cars with the current physics package, in order to maximise people's enjoyment of the game as it stands.

I can see the logic behind side one, but have to agree with side two. The class imbalance is spoiling leagues, and even rendering the in-game TBO/LRF/GTR filters useless, as more servers start to run RB4vsXRT (and no FXO), or XRRvsFXR (with no FZR).

The LRF class is so unpopular that it surely can only be considered a failure compared to the other classes. I keep wanting to drive this class to gain some experience in it but can never find any populated servers running it. The RAC, being a real car, is sort of the benchmark, but the FZ5 is a pig to drive and is outclassed by the LX6 even on the higher speed circuits, which surely isn't right. If the more difficult FZ5 can't outpace the easier LX6 on the higher speed circuits, then what's the point in driving it? Same goes for the XRT vs FXO, and XRR vs FZR.

Please Scavier, balance the classes. Pretty please. Spend more time with the beta testers to find the correct values for each car. Surely that's one of the main advantages of having fictitious cars, that you can tweak the values as you wish? We're all bankrolling the development of S2, and people are trying to run leagues but finding them severely compromised by the dominance of particular cars; public servers suffer the same effect with less long-term consequence but more frustration for those that want to drive more than the FZR or FXO.

In the absence of any imminent physics updates, the class imbalance needs fixing in the short term, imho. Just a statement from Scavier regarding their opinion on this would be a most welcome start. But this issue has always dogged LFS to some extent, so I'm not getting my hopes up. But I'd love to be proved wrong...

Quote from STROBE :

The LRF class is so unpopular that it surely can only be considered a failure compared to the other classes. I keep wanting to drive this class to gain some experience in it but can never find any populated servers running it. The RAC, being a real car, is sort of the benchmark, but the FZ5 is a pig to drive and is outclassed by the LX6 even on the higher speed circuits, which surely isn't right. If the more difficult FZ5 can't outpace the easier LX6 on the higher speed circuits, then what's the point in driving it? Same goes for the XRT vs FXO, and XRR vs FZR.

The LRF class is so unpopular because it is the hardest class of cars to handle, to get grips with. They are tricky, require smooth throttle and steering inputs to be drivable. And it takes more time to get to know their handlings characteristic, as they bite hard when you make a mistake. But this you know already. True, the FZ50 is a pig to drive, but it IS fastest on the faster tracks, like the faster Aston configs. Though, it is the heaviest of them all. The real comparison is between the RA and the FZ50 and this is quite equal couple.

Quote from STROBE :

Please Scavier, balance the classes. Pretty please. Spend more time with the beta testers to find the correct values for each car. Surely that's one of the main advantages of having fictitious cars, that you can tweak the values as you wish? We're all bankrolling the development of S2, and people are trying to run leagues but finding them severely compromised by the dominance of particular cars; public servers suffer the same effect with less long-term consequence but more frustration for those that want to drive more than the FZR or FXO.

+1. It just makes me wonder was there any effort at all to balance the big GTRs in the latest patch. The FZR just got faster, though the other two (as mentioned few times before in this thread) are close enough for now. But FZR is too fast. On one lap and on 1000 laps. Of course it is hard to make the class equal but if one car is always seconds faster, something is wrong (or then there is nothing wrong ).

if the FZR guzzled gas more and wore tires more, in longer races it'd be more equal, but as of now, with the time it gains on the track, pitstops are nothing.