Well as you could see in the thread I made a year ago I tried to find the diversity and get input from anybody and everybody (I think a new person can put just as much useful information out there as an alien). BTW that "alien" attitude you posted Fram is more of the fast guys that appeared 2010 and after, not for ones from before when leagues were flowing and pumping out good numbers and people.

As far as progession series. I had the FIA GT idea setup for single driver championship as well. Basically GT2 was the feeder series to GT1. They were two seperate series where GT2 was like LFSCART Light and GT1 was like LFSCART. Obviously not identical replicas but you get the point. That also was supposed to help simplify who was Amatuer and who was Pro etc. It all kinda got pushed down the storm drain when GT2WS was announced.

Now when it came to big one class fields of endurance type events, we never did allow two teams to have two cars in the series to try and make them have 30 different teams or whatever (Think back to IGTC). For TBOE I'd expect it to be exactly the same, and IMO it should help people who are frightened to race come race.

Teams used to be honored to finish in the top 15 because it was near 30 different teams all fighting it out and being a top 15 was an accomplishment. Now we have to split up the field with the Pro/Am to keep spirits up. Eventhough the Pro/Am thing was done successfully in GT2WS, I still can't see the point in it. Does winning the Am class really feel better than finishing say, 5th, in Pro? I sure hope not.

But anyways, more to the point. If there was a TBOE type series, would you want a Pro/Am class to boost spirits? And if so, how do you expect to judge who is Pro and who is Am in a series that has never really been successfully run?


@Joe: I hope you poorly wrote what you were trying to say. Are you just saying the current stuff is just diluted (as in we are running the same stuff over and over) and that it becomes "easier", whether it be from already having the setup, or from already practicing it a million times before?

@Phil, well yeah, I have a GT2/GT1 setup for nearly every combo and along the line somewhere I will have race it. I mean it doesn't get easier, no, but it doesn't take much time to get the hang of it again etc so not as much prep is needed and stuff. Basically something fresh is what I want weather it be UFR/XFR or road cars, anything new and not over used.

Road cars have never been used for endurance really, so I don't see why we shouldn't use it. Plus people like Joe suck in GTR's so we have to let them have a chance with everyone else, plus there are plenty of people out there who do laps day in day out with the STD class and I feel it would be great to endorse that group of people into league racing. I mean the STD leagues that have been run that I have seen have always brought in a really good diversity of drivers who are prehaps unknown to most but competitive because its in their comfort zone. baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaasically what I am trying to say is I dont care what we use, when we use, where we use it as long as it brings competitive drivers and grids and I think Road Car Endurance is the answer to that.

Fu James!
But yes I agree

Quote from vipex123 :

Road cars have never been used for endurance really, so I don't see why we shouldn't use it. Plus people like Joe suck in GTR's so we have to let them have a chance with everyone else, plus there are plenty of people out there who do laps day in day out with the STD class and I feel it would be great to endorse that group of people into league racing. I mean the STD leagues that have been run that I have seen have always brought in a really good diversity of drivers who are prehaps unknown to most but competitive because its in their comfort zone. baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaasically what I am trying to say is I dont care what we use, when we use, where we use it as long as it brings competitive drivers and grids and I think Road Car Endurance is the answer to that.

Completely agree with this

And I think, as a fairly average driver myself, a road car series gives us a better chance to mix it with the big boys, rather than racing GTRs where they all have their awesome setups and thousands of hours of practice

Well more time will be required for TBOE. Because in road cars, 3 or 4 hours are not endurance, just because tyres are carrying quite much. I think Fram already speaking the opinion of whole cooperation called GenR. We need something fresh for sure.

@Joe, well when you've done much practice for almost every combo some newer players (including myself) are always pushing their ass off to learn the track. And that's what keepin' the interest in newer guys. But most of them are loosing the motivation really fast, when they're 1s offpaced of top guys.
I'm not really sure if u understood me even a bit, but mehhh

You guys are changing championship too much. It's as if you find gold, then you stick with it until it dies out and then let's make something new attitude shows up. I know you didn't run MoE and IGTC, but those series's ren the same tracks over and over again till death. Noone ever thought it would have been fun to have a race at as6r for example this year instead ofgoing to as4 again. There are people who enjoy GTR for what it is and for them one series could last forever, just circulate track and or qualifying, race lenght formats. Also, GT1 is way more difficult to master and GT2 should have never been a top series like it is now, it just doesn't feel right. You talk about wanting to make new setups, let's race those innovative tracks in a proper GT1 car and you'll have a challenge on your hands.

TBO Endurance. I'm sorry, but this is a desperate joke. You'd kill GTR racing for tbo endurance... TBO is made for close racing, not endurance, here and in real life. You'll see in this 24h race in september that it's easier to drive, though maybe not on that track, but certainly less of a challenge as the fuel and tires have a whole lot less effect, therefor hotlap setup barely needs few tweaks and it's good to go. TBO Challenge is a whole lot better idea, but don't go running it together with the TBO World Series... Noone needs two tbo series running together, then nothing for half a year in that category.

And have a look at OLFSL, City liga, OWRL F1, if you need extra inspiration, these championships barely change their spirit of racing, yet they always survive.

Quote from N I K I :

TBO Endurance. I'm sorry, but this is a desperate joke. You'd kill GTR racing for tbo endurance... TBO is made for close racing, not endurance, here and in real life. You'll see in this 24h race in september that it's easier to drive, though maybe not on that track, but certainly less of a challenge as the fuel and tires have a whole lot less effect, therefor hotlap setup barely needs few tweaks and it's good to go. TBO Challenge is a whole lot better idea, but don't go running it together with the TBO World Series... Noone needs two tbo series running together, then nothing for half a year in that category.

And have a look at OLFSL, City liga, OWRL F1, if you need extra inspiration, these championships barely change their spirit of racing, yet they always survive.

What has made you think that running a TBO Endurance series would 1) Replace ANY GTR-based endurance series and 2) Have us run 2 TBO-based series at the same time?

NDR have always strived to keep a SPIRIT of tough but fair and friendly racing no matter the SETUP of our leagues. We amend the style of a league based on things we learn as we run it after its first season or two, as we learn and listen to what the racers say about the series. The only major change in LFSCART since it's 2nd season has been increasing the race lengths.

NDR have survived from it's rather shambles and sometimes disastorous beginnings to keep a rather high level of interest. We tweak formats and schedules each year to provide a sensible variety to keep things fresh so it's not the same stuff for a whole season year after year.

I'm offering this discussion thread to let teams know what we're THINKING about at this time, after some DISCUSSION we will amend our plans for the 2013 year, and then we can hopefully get some more discussion about that.

It's all part of my plan to let our participants have a say in what we do, the more of that involvement the better. Our most major and popular leagues have kept generally the same formatting, consider GT2WS a remodel of GTAL to overcome the "Amateur" limit. We mothballed GTAL for now due to an apparent (at the time of decision) lack of enough amateurs to make running it worthwhile.

We're not here to run series until the concept gets "old" and change to something new. I think you'll find our mothballed / shut series were due to other factors such as driver behaivour, interest levels, etc.

Who is talking about killing off anything? You've forgot there's a whole year of stuff to consider. I never had a problem racing in MoE and IGTC until sim development stopped, then everything changed. However since then you have to admit it has all been different.

TBOE would be something for the winter lets say, while GT1WS would be for early next year, while GT2WS would take its normal place in summer and later. So in the end its just filling a void in the schedule.

A TBO Challenge like before is still likely, as is LX Racing or even STD racing. The point isn't to take away to add different stuff, just to add what we don't have to balance it out.

In anycase, your argument of setup work is what we already have with GTRs, just in the sense that we already have setups for all the major tracks, or at least base sets that we can easily adapt to other circuits.

The SO4R race has happened before, and when it did the result was seperated by 50 seconds from 1st to 2nd, why? Because 2nd place had to make one extra pitstop, otherwise it was dead even. There's no reason to push something to the side so we can race the same stuff over and over until everyone walks away.


Edit: Freakin deko...

I really agree with pmd and his ladder idea, we have a little chaos now
and new players dunno how to start real league racing if they want.
Back in the days it was like he says GTAL > IGTC > MoE so direction was quite simple.

Also I think there was some mistakes from league promoters like changing names of leagues or replacing them with others. Its kinda like Bernie Ecclestone will come tomorrow and say: "ah, sorry guys there will be no F1 next year because it have 50y old and is overrated and boring. Next year we will put new top league insted and we call it "Super GP series" and we will look at hardly tweaked F3 cars or something else.
Now seriously about that my point is when we do things this way it loses some kind of magic for new ones who never be in MoE but they dreamed to be there but when MoE is out so where did they go? Is their motivation will be same after it? or they just notice there is another league like that and change their motivation to become a part of one of LFS top teams and go to some GT1 or GT2 league (however its called and whatever it is) and they'll try to show what they have to offer for top teams.

@JoE: LFS GT's leagues is kind of that history of LFS like F1 is for real world, they should return to LFS year by year and you dont have to drive it. Kimi when was Bored of F1 just get some rally car and tryied it. There may be some new good players that aren't in top yet and they really want to take over your spot in top leagues because they're not that succesful as you are now. Its a wheel: old ones go out, new ones came and true lovers will stay.

To be honest: we're not here in iRacing, we dont have league ladders and daily auto level servers which will sort racers by points or skill etc.
As I wrote it somewhere in this forum dev's just give us some toys, but how we get some fun of it is really depends of ourselves and how we will use it.
Now we can see LFS is more Live to Cruise and cruisers are still making new servers new rules and have fun of it without waiting for patch. they're patching it by putting some attractive system on their server or sth.
We racers are going for new leagues without any league ladder.
If there will be not FIA then I think rl racing should look like LFS is now.
FIA sets some calendars and ladders - we don't have something like that here what make some "Main rules", Its not iRacing where dev's are giving us random leagues. Also my post is not only about GT racing, I think every racer should find here something that really suits him.

Quote from dekojester :

NDR have survived from it's rather shambles and sometimes disastorous beginnings to keep a rather high level of interest.

Oi. I'm right here you know.

Quote from dekojester :

What has made you think that running a TBO Endurance series would 1) Replace ANY GTR-based endurance series and 2) Have us run 2 TBO-based series at the same time?

It's a danger that might happen and in a long run it would end up in boredom for the reasons i stated above already.

Quote from dekojester :

Our most major and popular leagues have kept generally the same formatting, consider GT2WS a remodel of GTAL to overcome the "Amateur" limit. We mothballed GTAL for now due to an apparent (at the time of decision) lack of enough amateurs to make running it worthwhile.

And you made it the highest profile series using an amateur car. High contradiction there.

Quote from dekojester :

We're not here to run series until the concept gets "old" and change to something new. I think you'll find our mothballed / shut series were due to other factors such as driver behaivour, interest levels, etc.

It's just something we need to be aware of and learn from championships that died because of this. Always keep the change constant. Of course it's great to listen to racers and please and sometimes it's even better to come up with a surprise, especially if it's needed in context of the championship.

P.S. That's a good point Luki. We had Super GT out of nowhere and then it vanished back there, history is very important.

Quote from N I K I :

And you made it the highest profile series using an amateur car. High contradiction there.

We had GTAL when IGTC and MoE where around. IGTC and MoE have been mothballed / shut. By default, before we have had a chance to decide and/or start a proper GT1 series, our series became the highest profile. Not by anything other than being the last one standing.

This GT2WS could be considered an intermediate step to moving the highest profile tintop series TO GT1. I'm deciding NOW to do GT1 after MoE was gone, and no IGTC this year, no one else picked up GT1 or showed interest.

So before you tell me I'm contradicting myself, perhaps you should consider what actually made those series the highest profile ones.

Quote from N I K I :

P.S. That's a good point Luki. We had Super GT out of nowhere and then it vanished back there, history is very important.

It started in November last year, it's only July now. Plus Ben is dealing with personal stuff and hasn't been able to announce anything concrete just yet.

Quote from dekojester :

We had GTAL when IGTC and MoE where around. IGTC and MoE have been mothballed / shut. By default, before we have had a chance to decide and/or start a proper GT1 series, our series became the highest profile. Not by anything other than being the last one standing.

This GT2WS could be considered an intermediate step to moving the highest profile tintop series TO GT1. I'm deciding NOW to do GT1 after MoE was gone, and no IGTC this year, no one else picked up GT1 or showed interest.

So before you tell me I'm contradicting myself, perhaps you should consider what actually made those series the highest profile ones.

Damn sure I know we're not bunch of amateurs left who can only handle GT2 car. I'd pick GT1 any time over GT2. Obviously, you need to take more reasons in deciding gt1 vs gt2 other than general popularity of the car. Also, as the number of us has slightly reduced, even with all the new enforcement of young talent, especially from Finland, we now do not have any need for two series's using a GT1 car and you have a chance to start something that will set new standards. My tip is, decide between two seasons a year or one long season with more rounds lasting for nearly a year.

Quote from n i k i :

damn sure i know we're not bunch of amateurs left who can only handle gt2 car. I'd pick gt1 any time over gt2. Obviously, you need to take more reasons in deciding gt1 vs gt2 other than general popularity of the car. Also, as the number of us has slightly reduced, even with all the new enforcement of young talent, especially from finland, we now do not have any need for two series's using a gt1 car and you have a chance to start something that will set new standards.

Welcome to GT1 World Series!

Quote from dekojester :

Welcome to GT1 World Series!

:banana_ra

You better be on something Niki, because some of that was more silly than what I have seen in the F1 threads.

Anyways back to discussion.

For people who are not so inlove with GT racing you should provide some cups and that's what you're missing. You have single seaters well covered with FOX and FO8 championship and it seams so there is no need for you to go to BF1 as OWRL is running that pretty nicely. By cups I mean the sort of thing you ren with FBM, but in roadcars. UF1, STD, TBO, LX and FZ5 all provide possibility for cups and surely 3 of those are popular enough to be ren one after another throughout the year. Running them all combined together for a year makes little sense as OLFSL and City Liga have that more than covered. And it's not only for people who don't like GT cars, I myself would race most of those cups too. Those races are really fun.

You might want to reread Niki, it has already been answered.

Yeah I see people support TBO Challenge.
Why not make an FZ5 Challenge after TBO Challenge season has ended. That would be hell of a lot of fun. :hbomb:

How old are you again?

The challenges of FZ5 will make me feel like a 12 year old boy even when I grow old to 60.
Edit: Although, I'll never get to race it, soddi bo.

Just thinking back, back in time when MoE was the only one around they ren a feeder series themselves for successive seasons. Teams had to go thorough there to grand access to race in MoE. Likewise, we could enforce this with a support series to GT1 World Series running a GT2 car. Now, as we have all these teams running ala RedBull program, having their inexperienced drivers sitting on the bench waiting for an opportunity, this could make a good system for them, where you look back thru their history and decide if driver is ready to race in GT1 car or not. Of course, the grid might not be as big as the prime series, but that's not the point. The point is they are granted access to competitive racing suited just for them. It's just one idea to take for consideration or you could grant them access by success in your cups, including LFS CART Light. I'd personally use LFS CART Light as feeder series for both LFS CART and GT1WS. It's down to you really.