Quote from thisnameistaken :

So you enjoy the part of the race where nobody's actually racing? The bit where they all turn the engines down and drive around pointlessly for half an hour?

I get the impression the 'real' fans are a bunch of ****ing idiots who are more concerned with being serious enough fans of something than they are about anything else.

Well that's just common sense for the team. It's not like the whole grid do it, if they can still beat the car ahead of them that's not part of their team then sure they go for it. Is this the first F1 race you've ever watched or do you just miss the point completely?

IMO F1 isn't for the dumb race fan who just wants to watch cars crash. Part of what makes F1 what it is, is the team dynamic, the strategical dynamic and to a large extent the controversy stuff like this creates. If you want to watch cars race the wheels of each other regardless of who they are racing, rather than get the best result for themselves and the team then watch Touring cars or something

Quote from Intrepid :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykG06ixh92c

Didn't see this in Sky or BBC coverage Incredibly stupid from Webber, despite what happened.

Or he was getting offline to collect marbles like the car immediately after Vettel..

Just because he hit a few talentless champions in superior cars doesn't comprimise every other GP Schumacher won.

Quote from IsaacPrice :

Well that's just common sense for the team. It's not like the whole grid do it, if they can still beat the car ahead of them that's not part of their team then sure they go for it. Is this the first F1 race you've ever watched or do you just miss the point completely?

IMO F1 isn't for the dumb race fan who just wants to watch cars crash. Part of what makes F1 what it is, is the team dynamic, the strategical dynamic and to a large extent the controversy stuff like this creates. If you want to watch cars race the wheels of each other regardless of who they are racing, rather than get the best result for themselves and the team then watch Touring cars or something

This is what some people will never understand.

Quote from IsaacPrice :

Well that's just common sense for the team. It's not like the whole grid do it, if they can still beat the car ahead of them that's not part of their team then sure they go for it. Is this the first F1 race you've ever watched or do you just miss the point completely?

IMO F1 isn't for the dumb race fan who just wants to watch cars crash. Part of what makes F1 what it is, is the team dynamic, the strategical dynamic and to a large extent the controversy stuff like this creates. If you want to watch cars race the wheels of each other regardless of who they are racing, rather than get the best result for themselves and the team then watch Touring cars or something

Please tell me more about the understanding of a team sport. Alonso can tell you certainly nice stories from 2007 too. Betraying the whole team (in the end it cost them 100 mio $) just for the sake for his own title against Hamilton.

If you are entering F1, you should know that you are going to meet egoistic sportsmen. Also you have to be egoistic to be successful yourself there. That's what some don't understand in their hate for Vettel or other successful drivers.

Yea but that's not the argument Riegler...

It never is when I'm arguing against you BlueFlame but someone like you has 4 opinions on the same topic.

He talks about F1 being a team sport and tells you have to subordinate sometimes. Then he totally forgets about that it so often happened in F1.

Another example: Senna who disobeyed an agreement with Prost not to attack the one who is first into the first corner - must be San Marino 1990 iirc. But Senna took the egoistic route and attacked into turn 2.

Quote from Feuerdrache :

It never is when I'm arguing against you BlueFlame but someone like you has 4 opinions on the same topic.

All of them irrefutable. Argue and he starts name-calling like a ten-year-old, apparently.
Take it easy Blueflame, don't post on a forum if you don't like disagreement. It's a forum.

Quote from sinbad :

All of them irrefutable. Argue and he starts name-calling like a ten-year-old, apparently.
Take it easy Blueflame, don't post on a forum if you don't like disagreement. It's a forum.

Well I'd like to think people wouldn't take things out of context

Quote from Feuerdrache :

Please tell me more about the understanding of a team sport. Alonso can tell you certainly nice stories from 2007 too. Betraying the whole team (in the end it cost them 100 mio $) just for the sake for his own title against Hamilton.

If you are entering F1, you should know that you are going to meet egoistic sportsmen. Also you have to be egoistic to be successful yourself there. That's what some don't understand in their hate for Vettel or other successful drivers.

I havent hated on Vettel? Although what he did was wrong - disobeying a team order is something you shouldn't do - I don't really blame him as its certainly likely Webber would have done the same thing as him, obviously the driver wants to fight his own corner but he did go over the line with this one in the heat of the moment - but chances are its not possible to punish him enough anyway. As for bringing Alonso into it, I suppose trying to troll me as you know I support him as I can't really see any other reason you would mention him... then yeah, what he did in 2007 was stupid and it did show a weakness of his - but the whole situation was badly managed by the team and both sides learned to some extent. He lost the teams trust in him for the rest of that season, and it probably cost him the opportunity to steal the championship from Lewis at the end of the season, instead giving it to Raikkonen. It's not really the same thing though, Vettel disobeyed a team order in the heat of the moment wheras Alonso wasn't handling being beaten by a rookie Hamilton which surely made the situation worse, and tried to push the team to favour him by blackmailing them.

Quote from IsaacPrice :

Is this the first F1 race you've ever watched or do you just miss the point completely?

Judging by your posts I think I've been following the F1 since before you were born. Team orders have always been unpopular with the fans, except for self-styled super-pro fans like you who convince themselves to appreciate everything even if it's shit.

Quote from IsaacPrice :

IMO F1 isn't for the dumb race fan who just wants to watch cars crash.

Clearly it's for the immensely educated race fan who thinks that drivers not racing is just as interesting as drivers racing.

I've never identified as an 'F1 fan', so I don't feel I have to justify every stupid idea they have in F1 just because "it's part of the sport". I think DRS is lame, I think the pointless overtaking because of deliberately shit tyres is lame, and I think team orders are lame. And I think you're naive and gullible.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Judging by your posts I think I've been following the F1 since before you were born. Team orders have always been unpopular with the fans, except for self-styled super-pro fans like you who convince themselves to appreciate everything even if it's shit.



Clearly it's for the immensely educated race fan who thinks that drivers not racing is just as interesting as drivers racing.

I've never identified as an 'F1 fan', so I don't feel I have to justify every stupid idea they have in F1 just because "it's part of the sport". I think DRS is lame, I think the pointless overtaking because of deliberately shit tyres is lame, and I think team orders are lame. And I think you're naive and gullible.

Then we'll have to agree to disagree then But I'm not the biggest fan of DRS and the Pirelli's, even though they probably help my own personal interests for who I support in F1 atm.

If you wanna watch people banging doors and giving each other the finger then watch BTCC. F1 is for drivers with a brain and skills to match in a


TEAM











SPORT

Quote from BlueFlame :

If you wanna watch people banging doors and giving each other the finger...

Quote from IsaacPrice :

[...]

It wasn't any attempt at trolling. I'm just so surprised that some people are playing it down that F1 is mainly a team sport which it isn't. If it's supposed to be a team sport, then only have WCC.

The main problem is down to RedBull. Why are they trying to make agreements if they know they don't like each other - try to let them race but tell them beforehand not to repeat a Turkey 2010. I think they are good enough racers to handle that as shown in the last race.

However should it be that Webber couldn't drive faster anymore because he didn't had enough fuel whilst Vettel was more carefully with the fuel burning over the race or has been fuelled up more - which I doubt since both machines are automatically fuelled. Then I don't know what the discussion is all about because Vettel had a better fuel management over the race. If it wasn't like that, then Webber had two laps to react to reset the engine mapping to a higher fuel burning setting and counter Vettel's attacks.

Don't get me wrong because I like Alonso's racing intelligence. But I often read - not by you in particular - who hail him as saint just like Senna. Champions are often more ruthless and that should be acknowleged and tolerated in single sports. It seems more like a media hype to me.

Quote from Intrepid :

Vettel decided that he would take a massive risk, ignore the team and put 45 points on the line. Winning is as much about risk management, and RBR had made the decision.

i would bet my own arse that you have quoted your silly idol senna (which im fairly certain youre way too young to ever have seen race) on someone no longer being a racing driver if they dont go for a gap that exists

Quote from Intrepid :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykG06ixh92c

so thats a 10 place penalty for an executed schumacher/barrichello and something else for an attempted maldonardo/hamilton then?

Quote from col :

Maybe that's not the only thing... What if later in the season, Seb finds himself in a position where he really needs Webbers cooperation, maybe then he will discover that justice can take many forms

That's all I have gathered from this, the rest just seems to be pointless drama and arguing.

Quote from Shotglass :

i would bet my own arse that you have quoted your silly idol senna (which im fairly certain youre way too young to ever have seen race) on someone no longer being a racing driver if they dont go for a gap that exists

so thats a 10 place penalty for an executed schumacher/barrichello and something else for an attempted maldonardo/hamilton then?

1. What are you talking about. This has nothing to do with the rules of combat.
2. Yes, I missed watching Senna live by one year. Goddamit I must be a baby because of that fact. God, if only I had watched him one year earlier I would have been a fountain of all Senna knowledge.
3. What are you talking about?
4. Yes, Webber was naughty there and took an unneccesary risk
5. Above point doesn't placate Vettel's actions

Fact is Vettel decided his interests were above those of his team and the hundreds, if not thousands of quite commonly under-paid workers who design and build HIS car. A car which has allowed him to gain 3x WDC and earn a pretty penny... something the people WHO ACTUALLY MAKE THE CAR don't enjoy.

Just to add my :twocents:

The Vettel - Webber incident has 2 sides. Of course people want to see racing like that, but it depends on the situation. We all know there's the constructors championship, the aim of the team leaders is too see both of their cars finish. It's quite important, since it's all about the BIG money difference even between the 1st and 2nd place. And of course everyone wants more money. That's why team orders make F1 shit. Both Vettel and Webber were told to slow down and finish safely. Webber did nothing wrong, he just listened to the order. Vettel acted like a prick instead since seeing Webber finish first would have totally destroyed his ego. I can totally feel with Webber, it's not his fault that his team mate is so egocentric and selfish. It's still the second race of the season, Vettel took unnecessary risks, which was quite stupid. Yeah I know, he wants to be a champion, fight like a tiger, bla bla bla... But it's not that easy, think of the TEAM as well, he's not the only one, it doesn't mean he can do whatever he wants.

I didn't like the Hamilton - Rosberg case either, but Rosberg behaved like a grown up person at least.

F1 is crap, hilarious and went total pussy over the last years, I still don't know why I keep my eyes on it, but I do. Aaargh, whatever.

we watch it because it's a soap opera for men.

The Guardian quoted Hamilton as saying he told Brawn that he could let Nico through (I assume after his little DRS **yawn** battle). Brawn said "no, do as I say". That's a team boss right there.

http://sphotos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/ ... 74545660_1532637148_n.jpg

I just ren across this, hilarious.

All warfare is based on deception. — Sun Tzu

P.S. All credit goes to Shotglass for quote idea

Quote from Intrepid :

1. What are you talking about. This has nothing to do with the rules of combat.

rules of combat? i thought we were discussing f1 racing here but i shouldnt be surprised to see you go off on illogical tangents
anyway lets see what an expert has to say on the subject
- If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight, even though the ruler forbid it
- If words of command are not clear and distinct, if orders are not thoroughly understood, the general is to blame. But if his orders are clear, and the soldiers nevertheless disobey, then it is the fault of their officers.
- What is essential in war is victory, not prolonged operations
- All warfare is based on deception
- Pretend inferiority and encourage his arrogance
- Take advantage of the enemy's unpreparedness

Quote :

2. Yes, I missed watching Senna live by one year. Goddamit I must be a baby because of that fact. God, if only I had watched him one year earlier I would have been a fountain of all Senna knowledge.

or at least your worship of him would have seemed less silly and uninformed

Quote :

3. What are you talking about?

the penalties webber should have gotten for his conduct during the race

Quote :

Fact is Vettel decided his interests were above those of his team and the hundreds, if not thousands of quite commonly under-paid workers who design and build HIS car. A car which has allowed him to gain 3x WDC and earn a pretty penny... something the people WHO ACTUALLY MAKE THE CAR don't enjoy.

so what youre saying is he is doing all he can to become the next senna or schumacher?

Quote from Shotglass :

rules of combat? i thought we were discussing f1 racing here but i shouldnt be surprised to see you go off on illogical tangents
anyway lets see what an expert has to say on the subject
- If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight, even though the ruler forbid it
- If words of command are not clear and distinct, if orders are not thoroughly understood, the general is to blame. But if his orders are clear, and the soldiers nevertheless disobey, then it is the fault of their officers.
- What is essential in war is victory, not prolonged operations
- All warfare is based on deception
- Pretend inferiority and encourage his arrogance
- Take advantage of the enemy's unpreparedness

or at least your worship of him would have seemed less silly and uninformed

the penalties webber should have gotten for his conduct during the race

so what youre saying is he is doing all he can to become the next senna or schumacher?

Schumacher went to a struggling team to bring them glory. Right now Vettel just suckles for survival on the genius tit of Adrian Newey. Worship Senna? haha please... I'm one of only a few people I know who think Senna the Movie was a rose-tinted pile of shit.

wtf are you on about with the war stuff?