The online racing simulator
This is quite a common debate in many sim-racing forums, and usually there's two camps that emerge. The first one is the "mass market" part of the community, who for the most part agree that the force feedback wheels provide a much better experience than any non-force feedback device in a similar price range. On the other side, there is the people who invested a small fortune into their non-ff high end setups and claim (much like the marketing material for those wheels) that force feedback is a technology that at this point only detracts from the overall experience. From both sides of the debate, it seems to me that for the most part the people are trying to justify their purchase decision, and this goes doubly (or is it ten-fold :P ) so for the high-end non force feedback wheels.

In my opinion, if it is fastest laptimes you are looking at, force feedback will never help you in this respect and may indeed even hinder you. Although it would be fair to say that it is actually the pedals that come with most mass-market wheels is what will hinder you most, especially the brake one (if you are not running ovals :P ). I also do not find it surprising that people who have non-ff wheels and try the ff ones will find them awkward. The reason for that is that they are simply having to recalibrate their inputs as they got used to driving without the simulated forces on the wheel, much like driving a real car requires a different control loop from a driver than sim racing does, as the feedback from your bottom tells you an additional fair bit about what's happening.

I believe that FF actually provides a rather significant additional signal for the sim-racer. It will not help you improve your laptime, but what it does is help you in the situations where you overstep the limits. I find that, for example, opposite lock, which comes completely naturally with force feedback just as it does in a real car, is a serious guessing exercise without it. Now, although I am sure that with enough practice it can be done just as efficiently without FF as it can be with it (I do remember doing that easily in the old GPL days), it is important to note that in one case it requires a lot of determined effort to improve on it, and in the FF case it's something you don't give another thought. While it is true that FF might slow down some of the very quickest inputs, I never felt that it would be a hindrance myself (hey, I am getting old, no such fast inputs possible anymore ) and on the other hand, especially since the wheel is already helping you move in the proper direction once a quick input is required, and that goes even across the center in the opposite lock situation.

I would say that FF still has a long way to go, but as it is now, to an average sim racer it provides so much more feedback and immersion that it would be a shame not to use it. In the future, I do hope a system that is not based on electric motors but perhaps some electromagnets or similar might provide less resistance and a smoother drive, and at that point there will be no point in not using FF at all.
I would agree with that. In my earlier S1 days I only had a non-FFB wheel (a thrustmaster ferrari thing), and I learn LFS with that. When I got my Red Momo I found the FFB distracting and cumbersome, so I didn't use it for about a year. Nevertheless I was competative in terms of ultimate pace, and I could correct mistakes up to a point, as you learnt the amount of correction needed for a given mistake.

Eventually I turned on FFB, albeit on low strength. My lap times suffered quite a lot for a few months, but as I relearnt how to drive they became about the same as before (better setups and more practice meant I was actually faster, but I think the FFB wasn't a big factor in the better laptimes). However, with FFB I found more consistency. I'm still not hugely consistent, although I worked on that aspect a lot last year, but FFB meant a huge instant jump in consistency.

Whether or not I'm subconciously trying to justify FFB now that I have it and can use it, I don't think I could EVER seriously consider a non-FFB wheel. When I'm driving LFS in a league (where results matter), and I'm in the zone, I am totally at one with the FFB just like I am with the feel of a real car when I'm pushing that. Of course LFS's FFB isn't perfect (I think the self centering force is too much compared to the vibrations and bumps in the forces), but the main stumbling block is the technology. Who is to blame for this? It's easy to blame Immersion who control FFB technology, but I think mass market manufacturers such as Logitech hold some blame for not pushing Immersion to improve the standard, and also us the consumer for not demanding better technology.

I like to think that FFB will gradually improve, but it seems to me that the technology has been stagnant for about 5 years with no change in the underlying hardware or driver software.

But I don't believe that FFB or the lack of will make a slower driver faster or a faster driver slower. It's what you get used to at the end of the day, but now I've experienced FFB I'd be very wary of going without, even if I get a better engineered wheel (say ECCI wheels).
As i said up the page a bit i use a low ffb setting and ive seen two other people say the same. I race the the grs at blackwood alot. Im quickest with the fxr so take this for example. On my set up i use a locked rear diff and a clutch pack for the front. Now take T1 the hairpin - as u go over the brow of that little hill i can feel if i lockone or both of my front wheels before i notice the car move slightly sideways. In one race my power lead came out of my dfp so i lost my ffb and into tha corner locked my wheel and i only noticed when my car started to turn slightly, but as i was going on what i could see to me it seemed i knew what was going on later than i should of known.
I think the whole ffb comes down to everyones personal view and opinion though. Some people like really high force, some like none while others are in the middle. When i raced with a mouse i culd race and i could see what the car was doing but now im used to ffb i cant. If you can race well with no ffb then fine but IMO even though its flawed, it still adds to imersion to the game. Also to me it means i can go on sound, sight and feel through the wheel of whats going on.
FF is so much better. Cant feel your camber changes without it.
@DaveWS, Dude...i did read the entire thread and i do get the point(s).

Anyways.
FF just doesn't add a thing for me in the immersion and feel real department.
I'm an old fart, i've driven shitloads of cars in real life....from the boring to seriously fast...and what they have in common is they all feel like cars. And using FF in a sim, be it LFS or not, does not make it feel like a car.

I don't want to take anything away from how the FF in LFS is programmed but to me it's a pile o poopoo, and that goes for FF in all other sims aswel. I think poopoo is simply what current FFB technology allows.
User gives input, signal has to go to sim, sim must pickup signal, sim must compute signal, sim has to send signal back to wheel and so on and so on.
It has to be in perfect sync with what you as a human see or else it will be like just ever so slightly weird etc..etc.
It's like a movie with it's soundtrack just a very very slight bit out of sync....you notice that immediatly and it's annoying as hell.
And that's only the real time issue...not even touching on how correct the effects are.

For the sake of argument i've just driven 20 BLGP laps in the FXR with FF on set to 100.
I'm not slower cause i did a 1.07.14. Actually...i could argue that with the way FF responds to certain understeer- but especially oversteer situations having FF turned on makes it easier because one, at least i am, is less prone to overcontrole and overresponse because you feel a point where wheel resistance returns. Without FF i often feel as if i'm micromanaging the inputs if that term makes sense to anyone.

Cheers,
Willem.
@willemA:

Ah well, I suppose it is just a matter of opinion, but I certainly don't plan to switch of FFB anytime soon...
Willem, have you driven signifigant laps with the feedback set to a low level, so it's not trying to overpower you, but is giving subtle information? Whether or not the feedback is 'correct' I struggle to understand how no feedback at all feels more realistic. Ah well
well, just been trying with FF at 25 and did 1.06.92 Which is my PB (it's on LFSW) but i have to say i have had non FF laps with 2nd sector split times of 47.25.
Sadly i always seem to F it up cause the sudden adrenalin rush of seeing a really good split time right before those last 2 corners makes me utterly mess up those corners...didn't take em all that well in this lap either.
Anyways...i don't think with or without FF matters much in times..at least not for me

Cheers,
Willem
Quote from BuddhaBing :My understanding is that the FF is generated directly from the forces in the underlying physics model and does not use canned effects that are triggered once the car enters into a certain state.

Yes and no. DirectInput offers both direct setting of a force by an application, and predefined effects. Effects are useful for rapid changing forces like shakes, and forces dependent on user input like friction. The device driver or preferably the device itself will take care of the effect, thus relieve the application from having to send several carefully timed force setting commands per frame in the first case, and decrease lag by eliminating round-trip of information between the application and the device in the second case.
#85 - Woz
Quote from StuntCarRacer :Yes and no. DirectInput offers both direct setting of a force by an application, and predefined effects. Effects are useful for rapid changing forces like shakes, and forces dependent on user input like friction. The device driver or preferably the device itself will take care of the effect, thus relieve the application from having to send several carefully timed force setting commands per frame in the first case, and decrease lag by eliminating round-trip of information between the application and the device in the second case.

But LFS ONLY uses force by application, this has been stated by Scawen a while back. It does not use the pre-defined effects at all!

This is while LFS FF feels so much better than ISI engines that are all effect.
I use a Logitech DFP and find that the smoothness of the force feedback depends on the degrees of rotation specified in the profiler and the degrees of wheel turn specified in LFS. The larger the rotation, the smoother the feedback. For example, the feedback at 720/720 feels smoother than at 360/360. I personally feel the feedback at 360/360 to be a bit 'notchy' and 720/720 too 'floaty', so I have mine set at 540/540.
#87 - Woz
Quote from BuddhaBing :I use a Logitech DFP and find that the smoothness of the force feedback depends on the degrees of rotation specified in the profiler and the degrees of wheel turn specified in LFS. The larger the rotation, the smoother the feedback. For example, the feedback at 720/720 feels smoother than at 360/360. I personally feel the feedback at 360/360 to be a bit 'notchy' and 720/720 too 'floaty', so I have mine set at 540/540.

There is also an LFS cfg setting to increase the number of FF steps calculated by LFS. The default is 128. I have mine set to 256 on the DFP and it makes it feel slightly better

FF Steps 256

Not sure the max limit of this variable
16 to 256, Scawen stated a while back when there was another thread on the matter. Values outside that range get limited to the range.
#89 - Woz
Quote from Bob Smith :16 to 256, Scawen stated a while back when there was another thread on the matter. Values outside that range get limited to the range.

Thought I would have set it to the maximum allowed when I found the setting lol

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