Quote from Darkone55 :

Hehehe, give each other room, I thought you knew Phlos.. :P

Why giving room ?

Its simple really.

- If you are behind it is YOUR responsibility not to wreck the person in front. This DOES NOT matter if the person in front is slower than you or always brakes earlier than you expect it is YOUR responsibility.
- If you are side by side in a corner then both people make sure they give each other room.
- Either person involved has to be prepared to yield when they know they have lost the place or the move will not hold.

Crashes and offs are normal in racing but being a dick on the track is not. There is good hard clean racing and there are people that do not belong on the track.

I just hope that when S2 is out of beta you have to pass all tests with a car to be able to drive it online. Then at least people have passed the AI passing test. Might give some people the idea of what is expected.

Too many people come from GT3 etc where bumper cars is the way to overtake.

I dont have time to read the full thread now as I have to get ready for work, but I have to comment on this:

Quote :

In my opinion, most LFSers dont know how to overtake

In my opinion most LFS drivers will put their nose infront at the first opportunity rather than constructing a plan of attack. If they are faster than the car infront they move alongside at the first opportunity.

I drive far less agressively in LFS to avoid accidents than I do in real life.

Quote from 96 GTS :

One question for Ayrton, why would you ever intentionally hit someone, in LFS or in real life. That's the second time you've said that when giving reasons for crashing

yes many times, but usually if they have done something really stupid or are too dangerous to pass (they said they were going to hit me or something).

i have tapped people almost every race to speed them up if they were going slow at starts, or got a bad exit from a corner and i was stuck behind etc.

Quote from Woz :

Its simple really.

- If you are behind it is YOUR responsibility not to wreck the person in front. This DOES NOT matter if the person in front is slower than you or always brakes earlier than you expect it is YOUR responsibility.
- If you are side by side in a corner then both people make sure they give each other room.
- Either person involved has to be prepared to yield when they know they have lost the place or the move will not hold.

Crashes and offs are normal in racing but being a dick on the track is not. There is good hard clean racing and there are people that do not belong on the track.

I just hope that when S2 is out of beta you have to pass all tests with a car to be able to drive it online. Then at least people have passed the AI passing test. Might give some people the idea of what is expected.

Too many people come from GT3 etc where bumper cars is the way to overtake.

My exact thoughts. I was on a new track the other night in the BF1 and was learning the track at a pretty fast pace (considering i hadn't done the track before). I was making my way through a chicaine at about 120-150km/h (at a guess) and you could probably take this chicaine at about 180-200 if you really were pushing it. Next thing i know some tard comes flying into the back of me and knocks me flying off into the sand. Didn't even apologise. He claims i was going too slow through the corner. I told him it's his responsibility to know where his brake pedal is, and to use it.

I'll bring my point over to our local Australian motorsport, dubbed V8 Supercars. Which is basically a family sedan, stripped, fitted with all the goodies and a 600hp v8 throwin in up front. Sure, it's more precise then that, but im just giving you a brief overview. www.v8supercars.com.au

I don't really follow any other motorsports so i don't know if things are done differently in F1, indy, nascar, touring cars etc etc.... but with SuperV8's if you give up the "line" you basically give up your position.

There are many over-takes done around corners in the SuperV8s because of the driver infront running too wide. If they head too wide then it leaves an open gap for the person behind to brake late and sneak in. If they do get a good enough sneak then the person infront, who is on the outside, generally lets them have it because they know they have made a mistake and have not taken the inside "racing" line. Sometimes if it's a really important race then the wide runner will still give it all he's got and will challenge that position, but there are hardly ever any collisions because if it gets too close then whoever is still behind usually lets them have it.

I've gone to overtake people in LFS through corners to only have the dickheads cut me off. Literally ram me off the road, just because they couldn't take a better racing line. illepall

So that's basically how i see overtaking and racing in general. If you're not "on it" then get off it. If you're not on the racing line, then don't try and cut people off who attempt to over take you. Fact is you wouldn't do it in person because come the end of the race, the person you cut off would probably come up to you and head butt you with his helmet still on... so take the same etiquette you would in person, and if you stuff up, wear it and let the person past.

My 0.02c.

Quote from MAGGOT :

Seems I fragmented my argument in my post :S I tend to do that.. What I was getting at is those who blame you for not racing clean when you have done the proper thing and they have not, will not watch the video. If it happens, and you jusify your case and they still argue with you on it, a video will not help. In most cases someone does it once, then is told the proper way to pass and they are fine and do it properly. They don't need a video because they listen and try to learn (those like yourself, good on you ). The problem is the stubborn people who believe they have the right of way when, in fact, they don't. A video won't change their outlook. That's what I was getting at in my post

Oh, I read it at face value that you figured the only people who want to learn, are those who already know.

Well I learn because I hate sucking, I can run laps fine (though nothing close to WR standards), but racing I suck at. But it's more fear of causing a crash then anything. The inability to see around doesn't help, right now I can put my eyes to one side of my head and have the ability to see partly behind me, having fixed vision makes LFS harder then real life.

I've done small scale races with my mum when we had two cars (this was on a closed down airstrip, not public roads) and it had more "hocrap I'm going to die" factor, but was easier to see around and not crash. Which is what LFS is lacking, so you could know all the perfect methods of racing, unless you can see around you're still in trouble. Though if there is a way to combat that that feels natural (having to press buttons on my wheel gets offputting at times), then I'd be a happy chappy.

Here's a video, I overtake the yellow car at a point where it's "impossible"..
Actually it's about the only point where you can pass someone at Fe Green.

Two more.

Overtake2 is NOT the way to pass. I'm very lucky there that Adam didn't turn in to the apex.

Overtake3 is cool imo, the outside, just giving eachother enough room.

I've breezed through most of this discussion as it is quite lengthy and difficult to read with limited time. It is my understanding that a lot of folks are saying that unless the passing car is up to your door, it is ok to "close the door" on them. I'd say this is an inaccurate statement. Due to the fact that you can not see the other car is beside you until they are up to your door, I wouldn't call it "closing the door" on them. If they are not up to your left/right view which is at the door, then the pass shouldn't be attemted. If a crash is the result of the passing car not being up to the door BEFORE turn-in, then the lead car has every right to take the apex. That is not "closing the door", that is not being able to know there is a car inside. For example, in the above post with the attachments from Darkone55. In "overtake2.zip", he says he is lucky that Adam didn't turn into the apex. That would not be called "closing the door" because Adam would not have known Darkone55 was there.

When the passing car is up to the lead's door, he has the right to the APEX, not the racing line. It does NOT give him the right to push the passed car out on exit. I saw someone else (woz?) post his opinion that it is up to both racers to make the pass clean. In my opinion, if I was being passed and they were up to my door where I would know they were there, I give them the apex. I would not, however, back out of it and let them have the entire racing line. I have the right to the outside line and to exit the corner without totally giving up. This is close and clean racing. In the opposite, if I was the one passing and had the apex, I would not just blast out and take the exit away from the car I was passing. I would leave him room not expecting him to totally give up. This is close and clean racing.

Someone with more experience with simracing will know better when someone is beside him or not even if the passing car is not up to the door. Track awareness will come with experience and when 2 or more racers are battling it out with good awareness, they can run closer and side by side through the corners. When I was running around pre patch U on the CRC demo server, I was racing very often with Stoney, 180sx, RobUK, as well as many actual demo users. In the slow GTi's we were able to race side by side through the majority of the race running easily 1:33's without anyone gaining the spot because we were aware of each other and knew when to leave room and when we could keep the line. This is a bit easier in the slower cars than say the GTR's, but it is the same concept.

Quote from ayrton senna 87 :

yes many times, but usually if they have done something really stupid or are too dangerous to pass (they said they were going to hit me or something).

i have tapped people almost every race to speed them up if they were going slow at starts, or got a bad exit from a corner and i was stuck behind etc.

And you say you no how to overtake.illepall
car racing is a no contact sport.

Quote from speedykev :

And you say you no how to overtake.illepall
car racing is a no contact sport.

tell the WTCCs something about
but indeed i wouldnt tap anyone due to small lag possibility which could turn up as not a tap really...

back in days i had those two messages:
F9 - "hit in front, excuse me - NO SORRY!" for situations where i got on inside in apex hitting someone in front half (AND cleanly stayed on track on exit - usually i gave some half car room+curb)
F7 - "ooops... sry" when i didnt :/



btw: what about this "moment of truth" : hamilton-piccione-piquet at silverstone

If you have the racing line going into the corner, and someone is just on the inside, then its normally the person trying to overtake who should back off, the person on the racing will probably take the normal line or you would assume that, so you would get out of the throttle or on the brakes to avoid contact.

I remember racing someone at south city classic in mrt's. I was going down the inside under the bridge, i wasnt that far up though and the guy came across taking the normal racing line and squeezed me up against the wall to the point that i had to get out of the move because there was just no room. On these occasions normally the other guy gives you room, but i thought it was quite good that he was defending his position, but i got him on the next lap into the hairpin after the bridge.

You dont just give up your position, you fight for it, but you still have to race clean and try not to avoid contact.

Quote from AndRand :

btw: what about this "moment of truth" : hamilton-piccione-piquet at silverstone

Awful move. In F1 he'd have been reprimanded had he forced 1 person onto the grass at 150mph, and made another one panic brake in the same corner. Luckily for him the other people wanted to finish the race and so got out of the idiots way. But just because he's in a feeder series overtaking like a twat somehow makes one a brilliant driver illepall

Quote from tristancliffe :

Awful move. In F1 he'd have been reprimanded had he forced 1 person onto the grass at 150mph, and made another one panic brake in the same corner. Luckily for him the other people wanted to finish the race and so got out of the idiots way. But just because he's in a feeder series overtaking like a twat somehow makes one a brilliant driver illepall

well, they went alongside thru those esses so they drove parallel. Neither PIccione nor Piquet were forced to brake, they just happened to be on 3 lane autobahn esses. And as i understand those 2 points: (1)overtaken one dont close the door when overtaking one's front wheels are in front the door (in that case roughly say the driver) and (2)one overtaking takes responsibility of the overtaken (giving room) - for me that was ok.

I was there - Piquet braked and ended up on the grass in front of me, and demolished an Agip sign. Piccione braked (well, lifted, but that's almost the same as braking) and had to move to the left a LOT to avoid him.

the only problem i have is the really fast guys who dont understand the difference between hotlapping and racing. it doesnt matter how fast you can go if you hit other cars. even qualifying is not hotlapping, there are other cars on the track and you have to respect that no matter how fast or good you think you are.

In the end of the day to race IRL you need to get a racing licence. In some series you also have to qualify within X time of the pole position to be allowed in the race.

What this means is that IRL everyone on the track should have similar sort of abaility and there should not be HUGE speed differences between people in corners etc.

In LFS and other race sims it is not the same. You have to KNOW when to yield. In the same situation IRL you would know that the other driver knows what they are doing so you can take the corner 2 wide etc.

In LFS you might be on the tail of a young kid fresh from playing NFS that thinks bumper cars is OK. So you have to watch the person in front and pic your moment better that IRL.

People wonder why there are so many offs in LFS but when you look at the environment and experience and knowledge of race rules then you realise why its not always the same.


In a league race it all changes because you know everyone else is "serious" so you can drive harder.

Racing means going fast BUT it also means finishing the race. If you can't finish a race because you didn't yield because "it was your right" then you have failed. Race hard BUT race with your eyes open.

About the vids Darkone posted: I think overtake1 and overtake3 are pretty clear. Nice overtaking moves executed by drivers who obviously knew what they were doing. I especially like overtake1.

Overtake2 (which isn't an overtake, obviously) illustrates very well imho, why the concept introduced by Senna in the opening post usually does not work in LFS with all the drivers of different skill levels and different concepts of what "real racing" is in their opinion. Darkone said it himself: He was lucky that Adam did _not_ turn in on him. I would not have turned in either, even though I would have had all the right to do so, as the driver behind was clearly in no position to pass. But I like finishing races more than I like crashing. Darkone did the right thing and backed off. However, many drivers (usually fast ones who think online racing is the same as hotlapping) would not have backed off. Knowing that, I tend to leave room - especially in certain chicanes - which means slowing down. That sometimes leads to the situation described somewhere in an earlier post: both cars are slowing down, waiting for the other to take the line. Or, often enough, it leads to the situation that I end up losing a position

So, the bottom line is: In general I would fully agree with Senna's concept, the way I understand it. But the reality of LFS is not like that. And I don't think vids will change it, because in most of the cases the ppl you are fighting have not seen them. Unfortunately, I don't have a better solution, and I actually think there is none.

I have just started using Pit Spotter and find it really usefull for those blind spots.I find as your about to commit to a corner , when using look left/right buttons ,is pretty hard to keep a good line.Pit Spotter gives you nice warning for other drivers being next to you without distracting your view.
We are limited in our field of view in game, so people should be more aware what around them

Yes, I use Pitspotter religiously as well, never race without it. I find it very very accurate, but some have disagreed with that. I've never had a problem pulling back in line after a pass as soon as I hear "clear".

not sure how this all fare sin the rand scheme of things as i have not been racing on the s2 servers long (although i had my licence for ages )
but i now use the pitspotter program, instead of using the DFP d button to view, if the pitspotter bloke tells me its clear, i turn in and go for it, if he does not, then i tend to brake later but harder, then while the driver on the inside flys up at a rate just a little to fast, i turn in hard and power past them on the exit

i love doing this

Quote from Sticky-Micky :

not sure how this all fare sin the rand scheme of things as i have not been racing on the s2 servers long (although i had my licence for ages )
but i now use the pitspotter program, instead of using the DFP d button to view, if the pitspotter bloke tells me its clear, i turn in and go for it, if he does not, then i tend to brake later but harder, then while the driver on the inside flys up at a rate just a little to fast, i turn in hard and power past them on the exit

i love doing this

IMO, pitspotter does NOT eliminate your left/right view. You still need to know where they are, and how they are driving (ie, they are heading into the corner on the inside too hot...). About your passing tactic, you should brake earlier and easier thus giving you more control, take a late turn-in and early throttle. That will blast you past them on the exit . Works great.

Quote from mrodgers :

IMO, pitspotter does NOT eliminate your left/right view. You still need to know where they are, and how they are driving (ie, they are heading into the corner on the inside too hot...). About your passing tactic, you should brake earlier and easier thus giving you more control, take a late turn-in and early throttle. That will blast you past them on the exit . Works great.

that is kinda what i meant, not sure why i wrote what i did

all i know is 9/10 times the perso on the inside comes in to hard and messes up enough to get past

if somebody is blatently faster then me (judgeing on previous races etc etc), i will just let them past nice and easy and try to keep up with them for as long as possible to learn faster lines

Quote from Darkone55 :

Here's a video, I overtake the yellow car at a point where it's "impossible"..
Actually it's about the only point where you can pass someone at Fe Green.

I hate when someone says that's the only place where You can overtake at FE Green
You can actually pass in SOOOOO many places on Green and specially driving cleverly behind someone and waiting for him to do a mistake WHICH does happen a lot, cause those chicanes make even the best to go wrong, specially UNDER PRESSURE , being followed by someone
I can even pass ppl before the last chicane by gaining enough speed in the turn onto the birdge and getting past of them in the inside before the last chicane comes. if anyone needs passing lessons on Greens , Call 55 42 391 haha

Quote from RudiTurbo :

I hate when someone says that's the only place where You can overtake at FE Green
You can actually pass in SOOOOO many places on Green and specially driving cleverly behind someone and waiting for him to do a mistake WHICH does happen a lot, cause those chicanes make even the best to go wrong, specially UNDER PRESSURE , being followed by someone
I can even crash into ppl before the last chicane by gaining enough speed in the turn onto the birdge and crash them in the inside before the last chicane comes. if anyone needs crashing lessons on Greens , Call 55 42 391 haha

They said passing, not crashing.