Hello devs,

I've been with you guys since the begining, but I am sad, that the majority of people has moved to different sims. We will run a public wide LFS league in the Czech Republic, to search for young motorsport talents for a race team I worked with for some time now. They participate in European Truck Racing, Dakar rallye and are now starting their career in GT cars. So I hope this will bring back some of the life back into LFS.

But the main aim of this thread is a bit different. In the past 10 years, our motion sim company evolved a bit, from having 1 simulator to having 12. We opened a Racing Centre for people to do some serious simracing, but everyone wants to drive real cars on real tracks. Me and my partner love LFS, the physics, the feeling of the car is still unmatched and so is the netcode, so we would love to use LFS for our public events, but without the real cars and tracks it's a no-go. The same story goes for real life race drivers, who come to us for practice before their next race - they need to be on the track of their next real life event.

Are you still decided on that "closed" development mode of yours? In the last years I worked for some of the top teams in the GT field - Black Falcon Racing, Grasser Racing, Emil Frey racing and maybe could open the doors for you there. (BTW being a performance engineer I noticed that in LFS, on cars which have underfloor downforce, there is no change in it if you play with ride height - IRL this does a lot and the "rake" angle is a major part of GT car's setup) I have also experience with 3D scanning which could help Eric bring real cars into LFS. The same goes for the race tracks, for 14 years now I have the FIM Sporting Steward and Clerk of the Course license, have been in close cooperation with people managing various race tracks and it's all about the people. I bet it's not only me who wants to see laser scanned racetracks like Spa or Nurburgring in LFS

Looking forward to hearing from you guys

I agree on the fact that two people running the development aren't nearly enough to match modern day standard in term of development pace, between the amount of variables to simulate and the time consuming artistic work it becomes a never ending project, how many time I saw solo or even 3 men indy teams dreams getting crushed for projects that are way less complex than a simulation, because of the mountains of work and skills required for games development.

I am also quite sure that Scavier got some juicy offers in the past that could make their sim even bigger than some of the newly released IP ( Assetto corsa or project cars etc... ), but they want to be as free as possible and I respect that, here's an old Quote from Scawen that explain their pov :

Quote :

I'm nearly not posting what I'm about to say, because I've said it so many times before.

It's kind of pointless to say that our way of working is 'toxic' or whatever else.

I don't claim that all decisions we have made in the past were the right ones. But we are working very hard on updates. You and we would like it if we could produce the results faster but it isn't possible. The only way that could be done is if we had several programmers and artists and a project manager. But we didn't want to run a company or work in a big company, which is precisely the reason that LFS exists at all. We like this way of working even if the results don't come thick and fast.

I realise that some people just can't understand or believe that software takes a long time to develop, and there isn't really any way to explain to them how that could be the case.

There are other products that are the result of large teams and you are obviously free to try them out. If you want to try the new version of LFS then you will have to wait. It's really as simple as that!

I feel almost silly saying this again but I have recently learned that if I don't then the conversation can turn extremely sour and doesn't benefit anyone.

I just want to add that I know most people do understand and are being very supportive, which is really great. Thank you!

The good news is at some point after the graphics and physics update, some parts of LFS would become open for modding, so I guess we only need to wait.

Actually I do remember, a few people would like to help with it, but declined by Scawan due to unfinished Physics...

I just have no idea what will happen, so I'm going to wait and see.

Need to accept the things as they are. It could have been better, could have been worse...
It is their decision after all and we have to respect that.

Quote :

Don’t try to change people. Just love them. Love is what changes us.

Quote from Chaos :

Looking forward to hearing from you guys

what do you want to hear? It stays the same. If you want something different then some alternative group of coders / graphics engineers need to be formed for something new and/or open. And thats it. Nothing has popped up yet but virtually every day this could change of course, who knows.

Quote from cargame.nl :

what do you want to hear?

Whatever they say Hoping for:

Quote from cargame.nl :

.. but virtually every day this could change of course, who knows.

Either way, they can let us know where they stand now (for me after 17 years) and we will see, where this leads us

Quote from VirtualGarage :

...

my words, wrong account

Quote from VirtualGarage :

... Either way, they can let us know where they stand now ...

They have said where LFS stand at this point many times recently... I doubt anything would change until the two major updates are released.

The devs will surely tell us if they are hiring people at some point, it's not like they are desperate for help. Meanwhile you can go and work for iRacing: https://www.iracing.com/job-opportunities/

Quote from lfsrm :

I agree on the fact that two people running the development aren't nearly enough to match modern day standard in term of development pace, between the amount of variables to simulate and the time consuming artistic work it becomes a never ending project, how many time I saw solo or even 3 men indy teams dreams getting crushed for projects that are way less complex than a simulation, because of the mountains of work and skills required for games development.

I am also quite sure that Scavier got some juicy offers in the past that could make their sim even bigger than some of the newly released IP ( Assetto corsa or project cars etc... ), but they want to be as free as possible and I respect that, here's an old Quote from Scawen that explain their pov :



The good news is at some point after the graphics and physics update, some parts of LFS would become open for modding, so I guess we only need to wait.

I even agree with Scawen, I think LiveForSpeed would be better off as it is than working with other big companies.
The only problem with LiveForSpeed in the last few years was the lack of updates, I believe that after the current updates, if LFS bets more on the next ones and bet on S3 for example it can grow again, we will of course have to give your time in time.
This is what made many SimRacers and leagues unfortunately abandon LiveForSpeed

I believe that these new updates will be a huge surprise for those who left LiveForSpeed and that they will almost certainly return again.

+1 on first post
i would add that the community is passionate and willing to create content , if only they were given the tools to do so witch would keep it alive .. the base is so great it feels like a waste not to enhance it

Well, I'd say no comment from the devs means all is still the same... But I still hope that some day... (pls sooner than later )

The thing about adding mod support is that you need a stable code base, create tools that are relatively user friendly and bug test to make sure that by unlocking elements of the code base to the user, it doesn't make the application hackable/crackable.

All this takes time and it is sounding like the devs have their hands full implementing core features i.e. lighting effects, tyre physics and so forth.

Plus imagine creating a track, getting it looking nice, and then something fundemental changes that makes it unusable or visually wrong i.e. like how adding realtime shadow generation has forced Eric to go back and add extra geometry and possibly light dummies etc.

Or creating a car, getting all the physics settings buttoned up, only for the physics to change, making the car undriveable.

I agree that LFS is a great base for a potential mod scene and would be great for bringing LFS to the forefront again, but we need to be patient

The unique selling point of Live For Speed is that it's not like other sims. The developers have made it abundantly clear their model of business is built upon a structure that allows them freedom to work the way they want and not be weighed down by the constraints of a traditional business model. Hiring people is complex, acquiring licences is complex etc... People act as if the devs haven't worked in that environment and made it clear thats not how they want to do things.

Assetto, rF2, iRacing, Automobilista, Project Cars etc... are all converging into essentially the same simulator because they are all chasing the same thing. Real cars and real scanned tracks won't add much to LFS. What I actually like about LFS is the fact the tracks aren't real because it's adds an element of genuine artistry to the product. Live For Speed, despite its age, is the most unique sim product. It's a quality that should be treasured, not lambasted.

Quote from Intrepid :

What I actually like about LFS is the fact the tracks aren't real because it's adds an element of genuine artistry to the product. Live For Speed, despite its age, is the most unique sim product. It's a quality that should be treasured, not lambasted.

I think this is a great point, and I agree.
Another iteration of Nordschleife or Bathurst wouldn't interest me half as much as Eric creating his own tracks inspired by them.

Alternate realities hook me much more than copies. The same goes for the cars.

Quote from Intrepid :

Real cars and real scanned tracks won't add much to LFS. What I actually like about LFS is the fact the tracks aren't real because it's adds an element of genuine artistry to the product.

While I totally understand your point and agree to some extend, I am not sure if I can fully stand behind it.

Let me put myself as an example:

Long time ago I bought a popular spaceflight simulation game (you will surely know it as KSP). While the original game contains completely fictional plantary system which was really a fun to explore, it didn't take much time before I started to enhance the game by myself. Guess what - I used mods that replaced the stock planetary system with the real-sized replica of our solar system, added real-life rocket engines and fuels with their real-life properties, used mods that add realistic stuff like crew needing of food, water, breathable air and electricity to survive, or add signal delay between distant probes.

Later, when got into another spaceflight sim (SR2), I didn't even bother exploring "their" solar system - modded the game straight away to simulate the environment I live in.

So I totally understand why people want to drive real cars on real tracks and while I really enjoy the unique stuff we have in LFS, a real content would be much more appreciated.

Don't mean to hijack this, but Michal, have you tried Orbiter?
It simulates our Solar System by default.

Quote from michal 1279 :

... Long time ago I bought a popular spaceflight simulation game (you will surely know it as KSP)...
...
Later, when got into another spaceflight sim (SR2)...

I don't really care if you stand behind it. Everything you've described is available on other sims too.

I will try to explain this in terms everyone can understand.

When people moan about LFS's development it is like walking into a niché coffee bar where the owner (ex-Starbucks manager who hated his job) is making coffee exactly the way he wants with passion and love and then telling the owner they should copy Stabucks coz they get more customers. The reason why people don't is because that'd be insane.

We live in a society where people have the freedom to do things exactly how they want. Some people paint by numbers and follow the norm, and others are more unique. I don't really know how to explain this is less complex.

Quote from Intrepid :

I don't really care if you stand behind it. Everything you've described is available on other sims too.

I will try to explain this in terms everyone can understand.

When people moan about LFS's development it is like walking into a niché coffee bar where the owner (ex-Starbucks manager who hated his job) is making coffee exactly the way he wants with passion and love and then telling the owner they should copy Stabucks coz they get more customers. The reason why people don't is because that'd be insane.

We live in a society where people have the freedom to do things exactly how they want. Some people paint by numbers and follow the norm, and others are more unique. I don't really know how to explain this is less complex.

So THAT'S why the development isn't outsourced!
As to the original post. Let's play Devil's advocate and say they take you up on your offer to make cars. OK fine. Will they be the ones I want? How about Intrepid? Nope. You could have a staff of a hundred and STILL not make the right cars. We're gonna have to wait for LFS to be finalized and then we can mod whatever cars we want. Besides, every time they update the game they have to update the cars too. I don't know much about coding, but wouldn't having all those cars (that most folks won't really use) mean updating and patching the game would be more complicated and take more time?

Yeah, Scawen has said before that we won't get any new cars before the physics update, because the cars all had to be tweaked to fit the current physics. All the cars we have now will need work to fit the new physics, and he doesn't want to have to do that work twice.

Quote from Intrepid :

When people moan about LFS's development it is like walking into a niché coffee bar where the owner (ex-Starbucks manager who hated his job) is making coffee exactly the way he wants with passion and love and then telling the owner they should copy Stabucks coz they get more customers.

That's capitalism for you. To a lot of people it is completely revolutionary thinking when somebody doesn't make economic growth the number one priority.

Quote from Racon :

All the cars we have now will need work to fit the new physics

Is that a fact? Because I don't really understand it. Scawen is working to update tyre physics, which apply to all cars the same. I always thought this was LFS's unique characteristic that there was no trickery going on, trying to correct a simplistic physics model to make it "feel right" to drive. I mean I can imagine that car *setups* will need some adjustment in terms of ARBs, diffs, brake bias, tyre pressure and so on... but the cars themselves?

Quote from 5tag :

That's capitalism for you. To a lot of people it is completely revolutionary thinking when somebody doesn't make economic growth the number one priority.

While I accept the notion that far too many people fail to grasp the notion that absolute economic growth is not the be all and end all, capitalism itself allows for a multitude of models. LFS exists within a free market model which encourages diversity within a particular sector. So I might got as far as saying it's a lack of appreciation of free market economics that's the problem.

Either way, the developers have made it so abundantly clear how they do things and more importantly why.

I have to say hats off to the LFS devs for staying firm and keeping it as a project of enjoyment and passion. They probably could have rapidly expanded the team, developed the game faster and potentially become an iRacing of sorts and made lots of money - but I gather that's not what they wanted for LFS.

I recently got back into a bit of sim racing with iRacing and Assetto Corsa. The first thing that came to mind is how well refined LFS is - everything just seems a lot more considered than the current popular titles. Then the online side of it, in LFS I used to get 6-10 races done in an evening. In iRacing I'll be lucky to manage 2 or 3 (ands sods law someone takes you out in 1 so you've to wait 2 hours to get another race). No one seems to have replicated the pick-up racing that LFS had back in the hay day - which I miss.

Then the cost, the amount of hours I've had out of my £24 is ludicrous. I've already spent more money on Assetto and iRacing with a lot less in return. I keep my eyes peeled in hope of an LFS resurgence but I'm certainly not owed anything!

Quote from 5tag :

Is that a fact? Because I don't really understand it. Scawen is working to update tyre physics, which apply to all cars the same. I always thought this was LFS's unique characteristic that there was no trickery going on, trying to correct a simplistic physics model to make it "feel right" to drive. I mean I can imagine that car *setups* will need some adjustment in terms of ARBs, diffs, brake bias, tyre pressure and so on... but the cars themselves?

That's what I remember of what he said once.

Quote from Racon :

That's what I remember of what he said once.

It wasn't clear what exactly you were talking in your previous message. I as well thought you were talking about the pararameters such as weight (overall, distribution), power, etc and not about default setups and so on.