Quote from JTbo :

I have already replied to these arguments of yours, Alpha version, not finished yet, all parts are not developing at same speed, but it looks to me that you have make up your mind and even if you would see that sky is blue you still would argue that it is red, so I'm off from this discussion.

Those are good points, thanks and cya in another thread.

Quote from JTbo :

There are lot of people online racing, some do share their setups, some do share their knowledge of how to improve set to suit your driving, some even can help you drive faster so there you have your team.
You can also gather few mechanic friends and do some session where you tell them what you like to adjust and they can do it for you, so actually it is not missing, it is just how creative you like to be?

Still it is in Alpha stage, not all parts of sim are developing same speed, now we had few thing improved towards more realism, later some other parts, eventually it will have all realistic things. This is where many seem to fail their conclusions as they treat LFS as finished product, it is not.

Thanks for your answer. Clean, direct, with no negative emotions involved. I do belong to a community in here, and I have learned a lot in the six months I have with my S2.

Quote from lizardfolk :

I dont know...logic dictates that if you cannot handle the realism of any good racing simulation, then you should stick to crappy street racing games like NFS. This game was labeled as a simulation and will be developed as such. End of story

Well. I refuse to. Please read a bit other posts in which I argue about the realism, its implications and the denial in which some fanboys live.

Shift+P???

Custom views???

Realist, sure.

Quote from lizardfolk :

If patch Y is weeding out the retards then it's probably the best thing that can happen in LFS.

LOL, pretty emotional response.. now, where are your arguments? did you read mine?

Quote from Eleanor SpeedGT :

What the hell is wrong with people?
That's not the first bashing thread in this forum and I just cannot think why people don't like it at all. It's fine, patch is good, racing still exists....

Opinions against opinions. What is wrong is that you believe your opinion ITS MORE IMPORTANT than others. Its like assuming that your opinion is THE UNIVERSAL TRUTH, while others opinions are.. well.. opinions!

Quote from phoretwenny :

I'm only disappointed in one thing really (more confused about it actually), that is, when your engine is buggered, do you have to press SHIFT + P? Is that your only option? When you pit, it only refuels and evens out the body, but I try to continue racing and the revs are real high straight away and changing gear makes no difference. Is there a button I push or something? It would really suck if SHIFT + P is your only option, but I'd adjust.

Ok, you bring a thing to the table that I was planning to use later all those "REALISM" whiners, its funny to see you all cry about "itss awll about reaaliismmm dduuudeeee" when you have options like shift+p!!! for crying out loud! Remove that option! in REAL CARS there is not such a thing as a car dissapearing magically from the track!

Want more? how about this, if your car gets wrecked, you should walk to the pits in order to get out of the game.. how about that!

Quote from ajp71 :

Hmm the last time I checked thermodynamics were considered part of physics. If you just chop and change the laws of physics how on earth do you expect to end up with a realistic driving experience?

Than you for bringing arguments to the table. That said, do you honestly believe that LFS is a fair simulation? Do you know the number of variables that are completely out of the modeling? Will you admit that there are more variables left out that the ones that are included?

Even the ones that are working, in some cases doing the best job on the planet.. do you believe they are as good as to make you believe you are racing a real car?

LFS its A GAME, it isolates a handfull of variables and try to depict a "accurate model" of reality. Why would you, and others, stand for the "realism" of a game that allows you to have custom views? (for instance).

I have a Logitech Momo. I do not plan to buy another wheel for having a clutch. That means I should not play LFS because my controller wouldnt be useful in a real car.

That means ALL AND EVERYONE OF YOU who drive with mouse, or keyboard, should simply not play the game, as thos controllers are not realist.

And the list could go on and on.

So, in the end, it is matter of dealing with a game with some variables fairly good modeled and the people who will actually play it (and more importantly, PAY FOR IT).

A game with options for hard core gamers, with proper setups (wheel with clutch at a minimum) and another, with the same basic rules behind it but that would allow us to simply drive, without being worried about things like clutches (because we don't have enough interest to buy the appropriate gear).

Thats not a lot to ask for.

Quote from The Very End :

True
People need to adapt, thats just the way it is.

I disagree. People needs to PARTICIPATE. People need to change things, ask for improvements, demand and shout. Other wise they are not people, but puppets. Nothing personal.

Quote from Damo74 :

Ummmm, all you arcade wannabe's, heads up,

LOL what about you! playing computer games! Besides, READ AGAIN, understand my arguments before making any comment. Thanks.

Quote from joen :

Hate to break it to you but it seems LFS is just not the game for you. You already struggle with setups and clutch handling. These are integral parts of racing. It will only get worse for you because more changes are bound to come to LFS in the future that will only make it harder on you.

So, where are my mechanics and engineers to deal with a proper setup, taking care of things like acceleration, temperature, angles and such in the game? it is a simulation right, why can't I have a simulated engineer?

I like to drive, and I hire someone else to fix my car when something is wrong, the same happens in the track, if a team wants you to drive, they want you TO DRIVE. Sure, it helps a pilot to know about some variables, but mechanics and engineers DEAL WITH THEM, so, why dont you argue with the designers about including such realism?

And about the "harder for me", look, I can deal with difficult stuff, the same as you and others in the forum. That doesn't mean I SHOULD LIKE IT.

As I have expressed, the "realism" is relative and I NEVER buy opinions based on bias (like fanboys use to). PLEASE NOTE that Im not saying you are a fanboy, you are being honest and not really offensive, but I express it here for others to read.

Quote from JJ72 :

I fail to see why LFS is "too difficult"

Post this in a thread where the OP its about LFS being difficult then, it has nothing to do with the thread.

Quote from JTbo :

Part of simulating driving is clutch and tire temps, good driver keeps those in good level trough race and wins partly because that, it is part of driving, very important part.

If you like just play driving a car, there are other titles, Project Torque for example, that might be directed more towards users with similar interest of you.

LFS is evolving to more and more towards sim and that will not fit to all, then there is choice that must be made, to continue or not, does it offer what you would like to see, is realism what you want. It can very well be that at some point your road and LFS road is not leading to same direction any more.

Thanks for your answer. I will look at that Project Torque. And Im sure I will give LFS another try, I might be disappointed, but not to the point of hating it

Quote from MAGGOT :

Also, if your tires and clutch don't last then you have a poor driving technique. I have absolutely no troubles keeping the tires on my car and my clutch cool, and I don't try to be gentle or anything, I just drive. Granted I'm not and alien, but I'm not exactly the slowest guy out there, either.

Yes, I will give it another try (and another) in order to get accustomed to the new patch. I was venting, in a way, and realizing that yes, I do like the physics simulation but not the part about having to be a mechanic to deal with setups, nor dealing with clutches and the rest of the new stuff.

Quote from XCNuse :

For those of you that don't know any spanish, I bracketed the title for you people.

Err, thanks, but it would be better to correct it, can you?

Quote from ATC Quicksilver :

So you want it to be a simulation, but without it copying the real world in any way other than physics? I do get your point, but its not like its suddenly turned into Netkar overnight. Infact Scawen has shown he still wants it to be played like a game, HUD, custom views and the ability to pick up and play, rather than sit in a garage flicking switches. The deal is, we have custom views and HUD, and the pick up and play style of gaming, but on the track its a realistic simulation.

My play S1 comment was valid, since it had quite good physics, with no clutch damage, car damage, tyre wear or fuel.

Thanks then, I misunderstood your comment as being sarcastic or something like that. Thats exactly what I was going to argue, why on earth all "realists" allow LFS to have custom views? It is a game, and it should allow us to race without having to deal with some things.

Now, I already have S2, and I want to enjoy the game, its just that I don't like the attitude of some screaming " itz all about realisssmmm duuuuddeee" when somebody criticizes the work done with this patch.

Quote from XCNuse :

Because... This is why we play LFS

Or for the obvious reasons; expenses, time, .. expenses.. time.. etc.

Well, obviously, in that sense, what I ask is not insane.

Quote from JTbo :

Well, now it is bit closer to driving, still misses a lot like radiator failures, engine damage because of that, limited setups and such, but getting closer to driving all time.

What you seem to want is that you would like to play game, not drive and race in simulation, that is fine, but as LFS goal is to be realistic simulation that won't be possible in future, I'm afraid.

I'm disappointed by people not reading all my argument. I WANT TO DRIVE, if the physics are realistic, thats welcome. That, in my book, its a simulation. The rest should be optional. The world sucks, thats why you all want a simulation to suck?

Quote from ATC Quicksilver :

Play S1.

do you understand, at all, what I'm arguing here?

Quote from Gizz :

ooohh common!!!! you carnt expect him to take all this in in one go!!! one step at a time!

I have a Logitech Momo, I don't have a clutch. And maybe he carnt expeact itt, beucaouse wi dount knou whatys tthat wourd

Quote from Krammeh :

Its a simulator, if you want a game, go out and buy TDU.

Also, you dont have to be gentle with it, just dont leave the clutch half way down and have full gas on.

Of course it is a simulator. But you are not in the camp of the ones who believe it is REALLY simulating, right? All LFS does is EMULATE some (selected) physical variables and give us some of the feelings actual drivers have. It is FAR AWAY from being complete (as you all know).

Now, it is also a GAME, and if it is not a game, then I want something that doesn't exist. All the REALISM you want in the physical model, but WITHOUT the need to be a mechanic nor deal with tyres or clutch heat. In other words, having a place to ENJOY THE DRIVING WITHOUT THE LIMITATIONS OF REALITY.

Maybe Im the only one who would be happy with it, that might be true.

Quote from XCNuse :

LFS has the word simulation in it... why should there be any "arcade" about it? lol

I do not mean "arcade" like in NFS or stuff like that, did you read what I wrote? I cleared it up in my last post, just in case

What I like is to drive, it would be nice to drive without "reality" limitations. It would be nice to have a SIMULATION (to use the word most of you love) that were fantastic with physics leaving us the responsability to be fantastic with our driving skills.

If you want a simulation, why don't you all ask for people actually driving to the track, getting down of your cars to walk to the track, then go to your pit and look for the keys of your car while and put some gas in it? That would be a simulation

I understand, the goal is REALISM.

Yet, the new patch should include two modes:

1) Simulation

2) Arcade

For hardcore fans, I guess, mode 1 its ok, they want to believe they are driving "the real thing".

Still, I play (PLAY) LFS because I like to drive and because I like to play. I have never liked that we have to struggle with setups, on top of that now tyres are useless and we have a clutch that forces us to be "gentle". the ARCADE mode would be as real as the SIM one, but it would not allow for setups, tyres and clutch would last forever and so we would only test our skills TO DRIVE, not to be a mechanic or to believe we are having more "realism".

Again, I like to test myself DRIVING, I like to compete with others to try my skills against theirs. THATS IT, if I want to race a car I would buy a gokart or maybe inscribe myself in a real league.

Sorry for the developers, and Im sure some of you readers will hate me and even (maybe) insult me. But anyway, Im just exposing MY opinion.

The random track mode would work as an "equalizer" of some sort. This mode could select either one track of the ones that come with LFS or, ideally, CREATE A COMPLETELY NEW TRACK from scratch.

The ghost modes would help those who hate being crashed by some noob by allowing the leaders to keep their speed. It will also automatically work when somebody is trying to drive backwards, or stand their car in a compromised area.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

So you're speaking about changing the firing sample itself dynamically basically right?

Bingo, realistic sound! not like a Casio "piano" from the 70s (purely synthetic sound)

Quote from Electrik Kar :

Samples/synth... These things aren't exclusionary imo. I'm thinking your real problem is with the sounds in LFS as they exist now, not the method by which they are being produced. We're going to have to deal with it until the sound engine evolves again. And trust me, you'll get used to the sounds. They actually do a very good job already.

My feeling exactly, both can do wonders together. I was not aware of the sampling in LFS sounds. All I can say is that, in my own test, driving the F1 BMW in LFS is a painful experience after driving it in rFactor. The sounds are simplistic and, frankly, even lame in comparison.

Other cars do sound better, but still, far away from what I would expect. Maybe its just me.

Sorry to burst your bubble. But no. Let me quote an intelligent dude:

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

I guess this is another area where if you just don't "get it" it's no use explaining.

http://www.garritan.com/mp3/GOS_DEMO-128k.MP3

Listen to that so you "get it"... and then we talk.

Quote from gremwood :

I use the sound to tell me when to shift, what speed I'm at (general). I couldn't imagine using any pre-sampled sounds.

Im getting the impression that people in here believe that sampled sound is static by nature. Why is that?

Quote from wheel4hummer :

Feedback to the driver is impossible with sampled sound, but 'audio bling' is possible with synthesized sound.

Nope. Sorry. I don't buy it.

Ok guys, I spent the time doing a side by side comparo. Two computers, same audio board, one running LFS the other rFactor. Same car on both, the Sauber BMW. I plugged a nice set of headphones to have zero distractions from external world.

I dont know what some of you are talking about as sampled sounds giving "no feedback" yeah... right...

It is a delightful experience, the car sounds glorious, and you get all the feedback you need when running half gas, or full gas, or decelerating, you name it.

Get on the machine running LFS. What a deception. Really.

Now... I know LFS physics are superior, and dont get me wrong, I love the product (I have an LFS license and have not bought rFactor, ok??)

BUT

The sounds and the graphics are seriously behind rFactor's.


EDIT:

Results match what some dudes say in here with other cars, I tested the green car in rFactor and yes... no feedback, just a dull sampling.

Last edited by Bodhidharmazen, Mon 6 Aug 2007, 03:43.

Quote from Gunn :

No, it is supposed to be a simulator. Real time feedback is more important than audio bling.

Why no BOTH???????

I find it odd how some dudes in here appear to hate everything that could be an improvement to LFS!

Still, I hope developers will continue to improve LFS, probably adopting a mixed bag of sampled/synthetic sounds.

Face it boys, synth sounds are unreal, and this is supposed to be a simulation.