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David33
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Quote from durbster :But there was no specific threat. You cannot invade a country because of what you percieve are it's intentions, simply because those perceptions may be wrong. And in this case, they were wrong.

The USA went to war against Nazi Germany, which was arguably no "specific threat" at the time, to the USA. Also, I'm not sure what perceptions were wrong, other than, perhaps, the extent of development of Iraqi WMD's which, as I have stated, were a greatly significant concern, but far from being the only cause for the invasion.

Quote from durbster :It's true that the Iraqis took pot shots at British and US planes, which was a bit of a nuisance, but the fact is that Iraq had been contained successfully for a decade. It's capability of waging war was nil, as was made clear during the invasion.

The "containment" was crumbling. "Sanctions" against against Iraq were widely unpopular because of allegations that they were resulting in sick and starving Iraqi children, with help for the "unpopularity" being enhanced by corruption of the "Oil for Food Program" (by which, Saddam was permitted to sell oil in order to acquire money, so as to have been able to feed and treat such children), such that he instead used a considerable amount of the money to pursue weapons development and build palaces and, especially, to bribe international political officials to disregard and advocate/vote for eliminating the sanctions, entirely. It seems to have been likely that, within a year or two, there would have been no more "containment" (which would, anyway, have been expensive and labor-intensive [and dangerous, to pilots and perhaps others] to maintain for the rest of his life, and his sons lives, and whoever might succeed them).

Quote from durbster :As I said, the US, British or any Government couldn't give a toss about the Iraqi citizens.

I very much doubt that.

Quote from durbster :For starters, there's a huge list of countries in the world whose citzens are suffering like the Iraqis were. If America were on a serious mission to rid the world of tyranny it would start in Africa. But there's no profit in Africa, no gain. That's not a dig at the US Government, it's the same for any Government. They work to one system - to do what's in the best interests of its own people and no more.

It is not practicable for America to pursue, militarily, "a serious mission to rid the world of tyranny." Instead, I am inclined to regard the benefits to the Iraqi people, of eliminating their brutally despotic ruler, as but one of the several reasons that it was desirable to eliminate Saddam Hussein, and perhaps able to be regarded simply as a lucky coincidence, for them.

Quote from durbster :There has never in British history been protests of the scale there was against the Iraq war in Britain. The intelligence service never suggested an invasion was necessary, many senior members of the military were dubious about the plans, the public was certainly against it and members of the cabinet resigned over it. Make no mistake, it was Blair's war, not Britain's.

Well, I can certainly understand your reluctance to enter into a waging of warfare, and I respect your freedom to do what you think is best for you. I'm simply grateful that some of your guys helped our guys.
Last edited by David33, .
David33
S2 licensed
Quote from STROBE :about twelve of them.

I was referring, particularly, to the British soldiers.

Quote from STROBE :It's a bit like arguing with the White House spokesman.

Well, you should have been able to recognize that a White House spokesman would not likely regard you as competent to argue about what the White House thinks.
David33
S2 licensed
Quote from durbster :Your stance seems to be that the Iraqi government may have had some links to people who wanted to commit some sort of terrorist act against the US, and that was absolute justification for invasion.

Actually, my opinion is that the invasion of Iraq was reasonable under the circumstances - which included:

1) The contemporaneous threat of terrorism against the USA, and Saddam Hussein's Iraq's significance wrt being a potential or actual state supporter of such terrorism
2) Saddam's persistent violations of Gulf War ceasefire agreements - the promised consequence of which, was the resumption of the war and his likely removal from power
3) His continuing threat to his own citizens

- and that (his) removal would have been an inevitable necessity, eventually, inasmuch as:

1) He was a continuing nuisance wrt "containing" him, since he was:
a) Shooting at patrolling aircraft
b) Bribing foreign and, apparently, UN officials, in order to obtain international support for eliminating the sanctions that were designed to "contain" him
c) Pursuing further acquisition of more dangerous weaponry, while having demonstrated an inclination to aggression and having reportedly stated ambitions to be the prominent manifestation of Arab leadership, such as had been historically exemplified by Nebuchadnezzer and Saladin
2) When, eventually, he would have died, he was almost certainly to be succeeded as ruler over the Iraqi people, by one or both of his sons, who were at least as horrifically cruel and arrogant, as himself

Quote from durbster :So do you believe that Britain should have invaded Ireland in the 1970s? The Irish links were more clear, and made significantly more evident by the fact that the attacks actually happened.

I am not sure of your historical reference; I can only surmise that you are referring to IRA terrorism, generally. Anyway, I shall not presume what I would have regarded as appropriate to circumstances of which I know so little.

Quote from durbster :And please don't use the argument that we did it for the Iraqi people because that is ridiculously naive.

Indeed, I am quite ignorant of why the British pursued their policies. I know only the fact that Tony Blair, and several of his countrymen, actively supported the USA in its Iraqi policy. For that (and furthermore, for the persistently supportive and cooperative alliance between the USA and UK, almost since the founding of our nation), I am grateful.
Last edited by David33, .
David33
S2 licensed
Quote from thisnameistaken :money: Iraq didn't have any.

Wow. Cool. It's a good thing, too; otherwise, Saddam might have tried to use it to bribe people, and stuff.

Quote from thisnameistaken :weapons: Iraq didn't have any.

Even cooler; that way, nobody would get killed, and stuff.

Quote from thisnameistaken :land for sanctuary: Oh come on. And anyway, according to the US government (so you probably believe it) most of the insurgency against US troops on Iraqi soil is being performed by the Iranian Revolutionary Guard, so even with the USA running Iraq it's still a haven for their enemies. Nice job, dickheads.

Actually, I think that what remains of the insurgency, is mostly Mahdi Army, helped with some Iranian supplies. And btw, it's not technically a "haven," if one is liable to get killed, there, by American and Iraqi soldiers.

Quote from thisnameistaken :various intelligence and technological capabilities: Does that include various other vaguely-defined nonsenses or do you have any specific examples? The only evidence we've seen post-war is that Iraq had none of the capabilities that the USA and UK insisted that they had, which were used as justification for war.

It includes various vaguely-defined stuff such as what would enable somebody to maintain a despotic government and brutalize the citizens (if there were such a person, which I'm not saying that there was...)

Quote from thisnameistaken :and training facilities: So it's fair game to invade any country that the USA has pissed off which has a shooting range somewhere within it?

Ooooh! Philosophy! And with "faith" excluded. Hmm...that's a tough one. Well, for now, I'm gonna go with: no. Did I get it right? Huh? Did I?

Quote from thisnameistaken :If you're going to persist with this argument, at least stop trying to justify it by pulling random nonsense out of your arse.

How did I do, this time?
David33
S2 licensed
Quote from thisnameistaken :No. The basis for that argument has already been stated: Iraq was destitute following a decade of crippling economic sanctions, had no military to speak of even if it did want to attack the USA, and was - if you believe anyone except the US government - having nothing to do with Al Qaeda.

You continue to miss the point. Saddam Hussein was not removed from power because of an expectation that his military forces would attack the USA; he was removed from power because he had control of Iraq's resources (money, weapons, land for sanctuary, various intelligence and technological capabilities and training facilities) that he would likely provide for the use of international terrorists, since he hated the USA and had demonstrated support for terrorism (as if his violations of the Gulf War ceasefire agreements were not enough cause for removal, already).

This is why it is incorrect for so many to say: the invasion of Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 and fighting terrorism (since Saddam wasn't, apparently, himself a terrorist). The point is that he had resources that would make actual terrorists more capable and therefore more dangerous, and there was good reason to expect that he would cooperate with them, since having the same motivation and goal (hatred for the USA, destruction of it), and good reason for urgent concern about that, since the 9/11 event had awoken the American government to the fact that it was involved in a serious war against such terrorists.

And it seems, to me, to be incredibly naive that you would imagine that Saddam Hussein would have "nothing to do with Al Quaeda" (or other terrorists - Al Quaeda does not represent the totality of terrorist enemies of the USA, anyway; there have been various terrorist attacks against the USA for more than 30 years). Do you imagine that two entities with a common motivation and goal would refuse to cooperate with each other, because having different reasons for their motivations, because having a difference of religious opinion? Have you never heard "politics makes strange bedfellows," or "the enemy of my enemy, is my friend" (popularized as a common Arabic proverb, during the first Gulf War)? Here in America, we have the Catholic Church cooperating with pro-abortionists (no, not about abortion or about Catholic religious doctrine; about other interests that they have in common).

And I've already mentioned a bit of what is, in fact, known about an actual relationship between Hussein and Al Quada, specifically (bin Laden's fatwa, and meetings).

And btw, have a look at the Iraqi flag, and how it was changed by "secular" Saddam Hussein in 1991:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_flag
Last edited by David33, .
David33
S2 licensed
Quote from STROBE :I'll go with (a) myself. In his golden, moralistic vision of the USA that does everything for the Right Reason, he seems to have forgotten who put Saddam in power in the first place. Pity I've got stacks of work to get done today, I'll have to save my (full) reply for later.

Saddam put himself in power, by assassinating his superiors in the Baath Party and thereby rising to prominance in Iraq's ruling party.

The USA did, indeed, support him - in comparative opposition to Iran, which was a more demonstrable threat to the USA, at the time (1980's), inasmuch as having attacked the US embassy in Tehran and held its occupants as prisoners for more than a year (yes, I know; this was arguably their retaliation for the USA's having supported the autocratic Shah). Anyway, none of that constitutes a rational basis for arguing that Saddam was no threat in the context of circumstances that existed in 2002-2003.
David33
S2 licensed
Quote from STROBE :Aggressive? How many times had he attacked or threatened the USA? please, name them.

Hussein's aggressive militancy was demonstrated by his wars against Iran and Kuwait (technically, such "aggression" would perhaps exclude his genocidal attacks against the Kurds of his own population). His attacks against the USA, specifically, included shooting at American (and British) aircraft patrolling the "no-fly zones" that were instituted for the sake of preventing his attacks against his own citizens - Kurds in the north, and Shia in the south - as a condition of the ceasefire of the first Gulf War (and of course, such shootings, and even fire-control radar-locks, were a violation of the ceasefire conditions), and attempting to assassinate a former US President.

The essential point is that he was a passionate enemy of the USA, with resources, and inclination, to assist other enemies of the USA.

Quote from STROBE :The country was destitute, broken, with a half-assed conscription army and a few dozen mid-Soviet era tanks. What money had been earnt, or illegally acquired from the UN programmes, was squandered on luxurious palaces for Saddam's family. Or were you referring to a different "Iraq"?

Coalition soldiers tasked with destroying Hussein's weapons, stated that they were astonished at how much weaponry he had accumulated. Maybe he had planned to build more palaces out of that stuff.

Quote from STROBE :Oh? He was? Please, name them (the terrorists). I'm curious what you'll come up with, because it'll probably mention the favoured bogeymen from a few years ago - Al Qaeda.

Abu Nidal, for one. The names of other persons, have been reported, but I cannot recall them, specifically.

BTW, you may find useful, this website that I encountered:

http://www.husseinandterror.com/

Quote from STROBE :Except that Saddam and Al Qaeda really didn't get along and had nothing to do with each other.

Osama bin Laden specifically issued a fatwa, exempting Hussein and Iraq from attacks for their failure to be proper Muslims (as bin Laden would define that), since he was regarded as an ideological ally against the USA. There are reports of meetings between Iraqi Intelligence Service officials and emmissaries of bin Laden, but no certainty of operational cooperation.

Quote from STROBE :This and further comments suggests that you suffer from the idealism someone mentioned earlier in this or another thread, whereby too many Americans think their country has such a clean conscience, a heart of gold, and whose shit doesn't stink.

This is an unkind, and informationally worthless comment. I will refrain from addressing you, and your ideas, in a similar manner, for now.

Quote from STROBE :You talk about Americans going to Iraq to fight terrorism, which is just a beautiful example of how if you repeat something often enough, it seems to become true. There was no mention of terrorism when the gunsights shifted from Afghanistan to Iraq. No, it was all about WMD. Saddam was developing WMD. Saddam building new development facilities to make more WMD. Saddam's WMD were getting longer ranged. Saddam had more WMD than we could count. The whole frikkin country was bristling with frikkin WMD, according to Bush'n'Bliar. Oh, and of course, Saddam was merely evading the weapons inspectors with mobile WMD labs. Remember Colin Powell standing at the UN with a comical Powerpoint slideshow, depicting nothing more incriminating than satellite photos of some sheds with trucks parked around them. The Bush administration were all over tv giving interviews and press conferences, chanting the mantra, "Saddam, WMDs, Saddam, WMDs, Saddam, WMDs".

And then they invaded against the advice and common sense of the rest of the world, there was no trace of WMD, and then it was a case of, "errr, well Saddam was a terrorist anyway, yeah, didn't you know? He has bottom sex with Osama Bin Laden every other night".

Except that Saddam didn't. The only terrorists in Iraq came there in the power vacuum created by the US.

Actually, I will address your ideas in a similar manner, here (although not so rudely as yourself). It is, in fact, the often-repeated falsehood, that Iraq was invaded because of fear of WMD's. Instead, the US Congress's authorization of force against Iraq included a couple of dozen, at least, reasons (I cannot recall the precise number). Many of them pertained to Hussein's many violations of the ceasefire agreement of the first Gulf War. Others involved his support for terrorism. Others involved his brutality toward the citizens of Iraq. Concern about WMD's was but one of many reasons for arguing that Saddam Hussein should be removed from power, although certainly a reason of particularly noteworthy concern. Overall, he was removed from power in Iraq, because his ability to enhance the threat of terrorism, by providing resources to terrorists, was intolerable in the aftermath of the 9/11 event (and also, because this was the appropriate response to his failure to comply with the conditions of the ceasefire, although the circumstances following the 9/11 event made his removal a matter of some urgency, whereas he might otherwise have been regarded as merely a continuing nuisance and an abomination wrt human rights). His removal from power in Iraq, is at least likely to ensure that Iraq's national resources will not be directed to the service of enemies of the USA.
Last edited by David33, .
David33
S2 licensed
Quote from Shotglass :how about the way the us worships its veterans and military in general?

I haven't noted any "worshipping." Veterans are honored for their having served their fellow citizens (and risked [at least] great danger, to do so). The USA is also generally proud of its military capabilities, since the US military is:

1) very capable, and very technologically advanced
2) effectively useful for defending against, and especially deterring, threats to the USA and its allies
3) effectively useful for addressing some humanitarian concerns, such as helping with natural disasters, worldwide, and fighting against genocidal tyrants

Some time ago, I read something to the effect that "there will always be wars, as long as people think that soldiers are worthy of honor." It made some sense at the time, but I have since recognized that it is overly simplistic. Wars seem likely to be an inevitable part of the human condition, and it's better to be able to win. Also, the US military has done a lot, to help a lot of people, in a lot of places and diverse circumstances.

Quote from Shotglass :1) its daft to believe that you can fight terrorism
2) all youve achieved so far is giving them more reason to attack the us
3) while youre doing this your freedoms are being taken away from under your arse
4) thanks to good media spinning you believe that your democracy is at risk due to some obscure enemy instead of by the true threats like eg the patriot act

1) Too bad; it's better than surrendering to it
2) No; a lot of terrorists have been killed, and their capabilities diminished
3) That's always likely to be a problem, when there is a war going on. And btw, freedoms have been progressively taken away, here, for a lot less than the necessity to avoid destruction ("progressives" call it "democracy" and "the greater good"). WRT limitations on freedom, due to the "war on terror," it seems to me not a major problem at this point (although airport security procedures are certainly an annoyance), and we're jealous of our freedoms (in some ways, at least), so we're keeping an eye on things, so that hopefully they don't get out of hand.
4) I have personally read/seen dozens of speeches, writings and videos of Muslim clerics and such, preaching advocacy for terrorism and for the destruction of the USA, democracy and Western Culture (and in some cases, doing so while surrounded by cheering followers), so I don't suppose that it's mere "media spin."

Quote from Shotglass :hes quite clearly marked it as a religious war by claming that god told him to do it... usually people that hear voices are supposed to end up somewhere else than in the white house

I somehow missed that speech, I guess. The most I've heard, wrt to any reference to "God," by President Bush, was his statement that "freedom is God's gift to everyone," which is consistent with founding American principles.
David33
S2 licensed
Quote from titanLS :Yet..

If you were a lawyer, you could perhaps express this as: "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." That would be arguably more eloquent paranoia.

Quote from titanLS :They may not be preaching fascism from the rooftops, but you can't ignore the similarities... Combining of corporate and government powers, rampant nationalsim, using religion and fear to sway public opinion, etc...

It is worth noting that corporations lack government's license to compel compliance with its will, by force of violence. Fascism would be exemplified by the actions of government to control corporations, rather than "combining of corporate and government powers," whatever that means.

Anyway, I believe that the pertinent complaints about the Bush administration, have been that it seeks "privatization," which is the elimination of non-essential, current governmental functions, in favor of private enterprise.

It is furthermore worth noting that, to the extent that corporations influence government (which I'm guessing to be, more or less, the import of your complaint) this pursuit of influence is the result of government's inclination to exert its power over matters that involve corporate interests. Where government threatens to control the pursuits of private enterprises, they will seek to influence the extent and manner of that control, and they will also seek to exploit government's control so as to benefit themselves at the expense of their competitors. This is simply the natural consequence of governmental involvement in such matters.

It is not surprising, therefore, that corporations would seek to influence governmental policy that pertains to them. The problem began when government decided that, whatever may have been Constitutional restrictions upon its Powers, nevertheless it should do whatever would be most pleasing to The People, and along the way, corporate people decided that they had better do what they could, to ensure that they got what was most pleasing to them. One can only wonder what diabolical methods "Big Oil" might tend to employ, to deal with the recent advocacy, by Democratic Party legislators, that oil companies should be "nationalized."


Additionally, I'm not sure quite what you mean by "rampant nationalsim, using religion and fear to sway public opinion, etc..." The USA is at war with religious fanatics who seek to destroy the USA (and democracy and Western Culture, generally). This is something to fear, and it is something that threatens the nation as a whole, so that it is a good idea to sway public opinion to oppose it. I have noted that President Bush seems to have been quite diligent in attempting to avoid characterizing the threat as one that pertains to matters of religion.

Quote from titanLS :Again, yet. It isn't about Iraqi money or oil at this point, it is about having a foothold in that region when peak oil begins to sink in as a reality.

At the moment, the war in Iraq is finishing the job of removing Saddam Hussein from power, by ensuring that Iraq will survive as a nation (and with a replacement government that is representative of its citizens and not an enemy of the USA). I will leave it to you, to conjecture what that may be "about."
Last edited by David33, .
David33
S2 licensed
Quote from titanLS :As I was trying to fall asleep last night I realized that this forum would be a great way to reach out and talk to some fine folks that I would otherwise never have the chance to converse with...

So, this question is mainly directed at those living outside the United States:

Quite simply, does the rest of the world realize what Bush and his neo-conservative cronies have been trying to do? By that I mean, many Americans still believe the war in Iraq was/is about fighting terrorism. It's not. Many others simply believe it was about oil, and while you can't discount the fact that it is quite clear they (I'll avoid using "we" when referring to the Bush Administration as I don't agree with anything they've done in the last eight years) are going after Persian Gulf oil, the question remains why, and what's the big picture? Articles like the Wolfowitz Doctrine,

http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfowitz_Doctrine

and its implementation after September 11th point directly at the fact that this administration is hell bent on establishing a new Imperialist American empire. Hard to believe for many Americans but virtually undeniable when you look at the facts. Is this the majority view outside of the states? Have Americans been kept in the dark so long by our own administration that they are more willing to jump on the bandwagon of rampant nationalism rather than accepting the fact that our current leadership is better defined by fascism than democracy?

While Wikipedia can be a useful source of information, I suggest caution with regard to its articles that pertain to matters of current political significance. Wikipedia articles can be edited by anyone, and it is likely that persons will use such an opportunity to assert their particular perspectives and opinions. Moreover, there have been several reports that this has been done in some cases, so that there are Wikipedia articles that arguably reflect significant ideological biases.

This is less likely to occur, in cases where the subject of the article tends not to be politically/ideologically sensitive.

It is also worthwhile, when reading a Wikipedia article, to consider the extent to which its information is accompanied by citations that indicate the source of the information, so that its accuracy can be checked.


Having said all that, I am not particularly troubled by what seems to be the "Wolfowitz Doctrine," although the Wikipedia article states that the "document was widely criticized as imperialist as the document outlined a policy of unilateralism and pre-emptive military action to suppress potential threats from other nations and prevent any other nation from rising to superpower status" - which is a bit of a mischaracterization of the document as actually quoted in the Wikipedia article, and is furthermore a description of opinions about the document, rather than a description of the document, itself, and this may lead to misconceptions about what the document actually argues.

In fact, the quotations from the document state that:

1) The USA should be concerned with preventing the emergence of any hostile superpower such as had been the case with the Soviet Union. It should not be surprising or worthy of condemnation, that the USA would wish to avoid being confronted with a powerful enemy.

2) The USA should act on behalf of its interests, including the avoidance of any increase in influence or aggressiveness of its "potential competitors," and without expecting that any international partnerships would be permanent, or controlling and limiting. Some Americans might call this an intent to pursue one's own concerns, and an intent to remain free to do that. It does not represent any statement of intent to be violently aggressive or "imperialist."

3) #2, above, particularly applies to concerns about oil (which, btw, is arguably the foundation of modern technology, being not only the principal fuel for all sorts of transportation, but also a fuel for generating electricity, and the source of organic molecules that are the basis for all sorts of synthetic materials, including plastics, fabrics, and pharmaceutical products). Again, note that there is no statement of intent toward violent aggression or "imperialism;" there is simply a statement that oil is important and that the USA should strive to ensure that it remains available.


Further responses to your posting:

The invasion of Iraq was very much "about fighting terrorism," since its intent was to remove Saddam Hussein as ruler/owner of Iraq. Saddam Hussein was a militantly aggressive enemy of the USA, with a hell of a lot of money, weapons and other resources (including intelligence services and training facilities), and he was a financial supporter of, and provider of sanctuary to, known international terrorists. And this was at a time when the USA had found itself at war with such terrorists. Additionally, Saddam Hussein's removal, from power to rule over Iraq, was in accordance with his refusal to fulfill the conditions of the ceasefire that suspended the first Gulf War (following his [imperialist] annexation of Kuwait) and that allowed him to remain as ruler of Iraq IF he complied with those conditions.

All evidence indicates that Iraqis retain ownership of their oil, and there is no indication that the Bush administration is "going after Persian Gulf oil" in any way other than by ensuring that Iraq's oil remains under the control of Iraqis who are free to dispose of it according to legitimate commercial means (which they are doing - including entering into contracts with many non-American oil companies).

"Fascism" was principally defined by Benito Mussolini (who basically invented it) as a philosophical idea that one's human significance is dependent upon his participation in, and contribution to, his society. Of the political factions that exist in the USA, I have seen no indication that this philosophy is preached by President Bush (or "neocons" such as Wolfowitz).

Also, btw, "imperialism" is the pursuit of an "empire," which is a political jurisdiction constituted by conquered provinces which are then ruled (and generally, exploited) by the conqueror and thus live under laws enacted in a foreign land. I have seen no indication that this would describe the intent of any American. Indeed, as has been pointed out by others, if the USA were pursuing empire in Iraq, then it would have seized their money, rather than be spending its own for the purpose of ensuring their sustainability as an independent and self-governing nation.
Last edited by David33, .
David33
S2 licensed
Thank you for the nice track, and especially for the well-done pictures.
David33
S2 licensed
Best wishes for you.
David33
S2 licensed
Here's a REALLY exciting "paradox"!

If I stood upon open ground, on a clear day, my ~180deg. FOV would presumably allow me to see from the horizon on my left side, to the horizon on my right side. Because of the curvature of Earth, this horizon-to-horizon distance seems, by calculation, to be ~10km.

My computer monitor is ~15inches wide and occupies perhaps a 30deg. FOV when I'm sitting in a normal viewing position. However, if I move my face right up to the screen, my computer monitor then occupies ~180deg. FOV.

This means that my computer monitor has mysteriously expanded from 15inches wide, to 10km wide. And yet this is much bigger than my whole house! How is it possible that my 10km wide computer monitor still fits in my house, when I press my face up against it?!!!
David33
S2 licensed
One thing that you could try, is to ask your grandparents to SHOW you how they want you to drive their car. They might appreciate your willingness to be respectful of how they want you to treat their car (and behave toward other drivers and road conditions, generally), and if you demonstrate to them that you are so respectful of their concerns, then that might convince them to trust you.
Last edited by David33, .
David33
S2 licensed
Quote from glyphon :found this explaination in the comments of this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v ... qkdcY&feature=related

Cool video. Thanks.
David33
S2 licensed
Quote from SamH :Most governments have managed to avoid a referendum on the topic (because the people will say "no"), but the Irish government either made a mistake thinking that the people would say "yes", or were somehow forced to go to the people with a referendum (I'm not familiar with how the referendum came to be, in Ireland). Naturally, the people said "no".

Reportedly, the Lisbon treaty would have involved changes in the Irish Constitution, and Irish law requires that any constitutional changes must be approved by referendum. So, that's how the Irish got to vote on it.
David33
S2 licensed
You could try reinstalling the TrackIR drivers. TrackIR works fine, for me, in LFS (although, regrettably, Patch Y has restricted its view to no more than 90deg. right and left, which makes it very difficult to drive in reverse).
David33
S2 licensed
Quote from DeadWolfBones :they then produce carbon dioxide through respiration in the same way as animals

Ah, you're right. I neglected to consider that they do consume their own sugar, as food. Thanks for the correction.
David33
S2 licensed
Quote from March Hare :About the green thingy.
How much CO2 do the forests of the world produce during the night?

None, as far as I know (edit: this is not quite correct; see my next post, below). Green plants absorb CO2 (and turn it into sugar), and emit oxygen (young plants do this more than older ones).

Quote from March Hare :the best thing for this planet would be to cover it in asphalt and concrete. Both of these materials absorbe vast quantities of CO2.

I was unaware of any such thing. What then happens to the absorbed CO2?

Quote from March Hare :Methane is a much more potent greenhouse gas than carbondioxide. Herbivores produce vast amounts of methane. So kill a herbivore and you save the planet?

Also, water vapor is, by far, the most significant greenhouse gas. Additionally, I think that termites produce a lot of methane.

Quote from March Hare :Besides what's the absolute worst that can happen with global warming?

Al Gore becomes even more smug (or maybe blows up, or something).
Last edited by David33, .
David33
S2 licensed
Quote from March Hare :Becky:
Watch out for those idiots in cars when you are riding a bike.

And if I may make a modest suggestion:

USE LIGHTS (big, bright ones) when riding your bicycle at night, and wear light colored, or otherwise reflective, clothing!!!

In my neighborhood, it is popular for bike riders to ride in the middle of the lane, wearing dark clothing and using no reflectors and a teeny little headlight, powered by a generator that is driven by the rotating wheel, and thus blinks dimly when moving, and pretty much goes out when stopped. This is a very effective system for simulating a distant firefly, and thereby annoying automobile drivers who would prefer notification of other humans occupying the road.
Last edited by David33, .
David33
S2 licensed
Quote from Becky Rose :Aren't exhaust fumes carbonmonoxide not carbondioxide?

Well, gasoline is basically a mixture of hydrocarbons (molecules consisting of carbon and hydrogen). Combustion (combination with oxygen) of a simple hydrocarbon (an alkane; e.g. - octane) results in the products: carbon dioxide and water.

2 C8H18 + 25 O2 -> 16 CO2 + 18 H20

However, there are impurities in the gasoline (including nitrogen - presumably, because petroleum is of biological origin), and the combustion also tends to be "incomplete" (I don't really know the details; it may pertain to the combustion of complex hydrocarbons [alkenes and alkynes, having double and triple carbon-to-carbon bonds, respectively, and accordingly, less hydrogen]), so that nitrogen oxides and carbon monoxide are also produced and emitted in automobile exhaust. Moreover, these tend to be noteworthy, since being "pollutants," whereas the CO2 and H20 are not generally regarded as such.

In short form, carbon dioxide is the expected (and presumably, greater) product, but some carbon monoxide occurs, also.

The main reason for adding oxidizers (such as MTBE) to gasoline, is - according to my understanding - to produce more "complete" combustion and thus, presumably, less carbon monoxide (at least) pollution. Also, as mentioned, catalytic converters result in some chemical reactions that reduce various incidental pollutants.

I will also mention that carbon monoxide (CO) is dangerous, because it binds much more readily to hemoglobin (the iron-containing compound in red blood cells), than O2 does. This results in an unavailability of hemoglobin, to do its necessary job of carrying O2 and supplying it to the cells of the body. CO2 is, as far as I know, not significantly dangerous to the human body, as long as it is not in very high concentration, in which case it would tend to acidify the blood plasma (since producing carbonic acid [H2CO3], when dissolved in water), which can produce a variety of ill effects.
Last edited by David33, .
David33
S2 licensed
Wow. This is impressive news.

A new report, that Iraq has discovered that it has more oil than previously thought.

A report from last November, stating that the USA expressed an intent to protect Iraq's oil.

A report from 2005, stating that Bush was concerned about "terrorist extremists" gaining possession of Iraqi oil.

A report (well, editorial opinion, anyway) from last July, stating that Iraqis are (were) trying to figure out how to manage their oil.



Thanks for the insight into all the conspiring.
Last edited by David33, .
David33
S2 licensed
I would add, btw, that I am familiar with a recent (within the last few months) report that it does, indeed, seem to be a recent trend, that live performances are tending toward becoming a more lucrative activity for popular musicians, than the activity of producing recorded music.

However, I wonder how pleasant a trend this might actually become, if recorded music is henceforth to be regarded as merely advertising for musicians' concerts. I like having good, recorded music, and being able to listen to it, anytime I want, and its being repeatedly enjoyable.

I am also aware that recording technology is much more easily accessible, than had previously been the case, when there were only expensive recording studios and their equipment, available. But I also know that, in those old days, there was quite a lot of innovation and creativity in recording, with various, unusual sources of sounds and interesting techniques for processing sounds; recorded music was, in some cases, a unique art form in itself.

Overall, a continued interest in producing good, recorded music, is desirable. Concerts are enjoyable, too; but the sound quality, or ability to observe, is not always optimal (and these days, concert tickets can be awfully expensive, not to mention the effort of getting there, parking, getting searched for weapons or whatever, dealing with raucous crowds, thrown or spilled drinks, etc.). And what I especially like about concerts, is being able to observe the skill of the instrumentalists; I'm not sure that I would find it so enjoyable, merely to see someone stand around and operate an electronic playback device, assuming that some creative innovation had gone into producing a recorded sound, to be reproduced onstage - an alternative would perhaps be no such innovation in sound production, such as would be useful for a recording, but not for a stage show.

Anyway, the point is that I like recorded music, and if it were of little concern to musicians, except as a way to inspire people to buy concert tickets, then I wonder if its quality would tend to be such as to make it worthwhile having (even if it were free). I also like the idea of inexpensive, recorded music; and it's nice that musicians are finding their way of adapting to a tendency toward copyright infringement, while still making a good living and producing good music. But I tend to doubt that there would likely continue to be good, recorded music, if it were all to be provided without any expectation of payment to those who create it. I have yet to encounter an advertisement that I would want to keep.
Last edited by David33, .
David33
S2 licensed
How about the obvious cases - of a book, or movie? Somebody spends years, researching a book (or drawing illustrations, and such) - or millions of dollars, producing a movie (and paying the participants) - and then the book, or movie, is placed on the internet (or otherwise distributed by someone who did not create it, and has no rights to distribute it), and it becomes available with no compensation for the creator.

Copyright (and patent) laws exist, for the intended purpose of encouraging people to produce creative works, by ensuring that they can expect to benefit from their efforts. If people cannot expect to benefit from their efforts, then why would they be expected to spend all the time, effort and money, to produce creative works? We would all lose, if creative people didn't produce intellectual works. Creating art (in its various forms, including what may be characterized as simply an "intellectual product") is a professional occupation for many persons, in an advanced civilization; if it could not be a professional occupation, it is unlikely that such products would exist (at least to the extent of being products of noteworthy quality).
David33
S2 licensed
Quote from Toddshooter :As an aside to this post... Is there any way to make a ramp without having to construct it out of 100 seperate peices side by side?

Well, what you can do is use Stuff's LYTe (layout editor), and make a several-piece ramp and then save it as a pack, so that you only have to construct the larger ramp, once. I recommend this thread (and especially, that you read the exchange starting at post #78):

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=16873&page=3

P.S. - The download link is in the first post, on page1 of the thread.
Last edited by David33, .
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