Quote from whendrix :

If that's your oppinion, I invite you to look for an officially supported SimBim forum and demand updates there... Get back to us and see how far you get.

You seem to forget the fact that end-users of LFS actually have the means of discussing stuff with the devs through these forums. Don't abuse that privilige by posting things that are not true, wasting the devs time and patience.

If you believe you haven't got what you paid for so far (full S2) you should have read the disclaimer before making the transaction.

Wim

As I am going to say for the 12.345.123.635,37 time, I said that based on consumer laws. I have the right to do that. Not that I want to. And not that the developers will listen to me.

But now we've come across an important issue: the Simbin product is a finished product. It can be full of bugs, physics errors, but they release it as a finished product. Yes, I can "demand" updates and the physics I find right, but they can just state that they already delivered me the finished thing.

Now with LFS, you pay for the expectation of the product (please, don't start flaming me here now. I KNOW how the proccess works and how things are done), so theoretically you have the right to demand the final version that you already paid for.

And about the disclaimer and end user license agreement: this is considered a "click wrap" contract. When you don't have to read it all. You have an option to click 'next', and you don't read that. These kind of contracts are believed to be harmful to the consumer, as there can be a lot of prohibitive clauses, that just wouldn't make sense, and everybody would click 'next' and never reading that. If I did not made myself clear, please ask where the post was confusing for you and I'll try to explain better the "click-wrap" contracts and how they work when you are facing a litigation.

As for the right to talk to the devs, don't be mistaken, please. I know we have the right to exchange ideas with them and they ask us 'directly' what we want new about the game. And for the mainstream companies, the developers may not talk to the consumers, but I for one know that they read the forums to know what is the overall feel of the product within the consumers (one nice example is EA Games and 2K Sports when it comes to the video game sports titles. If you go to OperationSports.com, you'll see that some of the developers actually listen to what the consumers have to say)

[ ]'s

Quote from AndroidXP :

Anyways, I don't know where this Brazilian conspiracy theory originated but consider this: you may actually be wrong. I seriously don't see any death signals that need immediate fixing via some obscure marketing strategies that simply aren't in the devs mind. Also, I don't know if this is a language thing, but you seem to constantly overread Scawen's posts or their meaning and then proceed to post the same nonsense all over again. Please stop that. It gets old. Quickly.

Yes. I never said I was the owner of the truth (wich I am not). Nor a fortune teller. I know I may be wrong. And so all of you also may be wrong.

Well, you know that our mother language is portuguese. Personally, I'm fluent in English, as some of my friends that posted here. We are putting the ideas over and over because there are people (not Scawen) who just seem to distort our initial ideas and put things in our mouths that we didn't say. Understanding what we mean seems to be a really difficult thing to some members of this message board, and I believe that I was cristal clear in every post I made.

But well, I'll stop this here. I won't post in this thread anymore, as it is leading nowhere.

If you want to keep this thread open, OK. But if you close it, it won't matter either. I just wish the devs work in the pace they feel like, so we can have a finished product sooner rather than later.

Peace.

C'mon guys.... I never personally atacked anyone in my posts. Nevertheless, you are doing it against me. Why? Don't you agree that this might scare some more "open-minded" fans? Aren't you being too agressive without a reason?

Keiran, your logic was a deformation of my first tought. You used the example of getting an entire new product for the price you paid for one befor (getting a major upgrade on yout computer). That isn't the case and that wasn't nearly as close as what I meant. And I justified it in my subsequent post: using your example, you have the right to demand a new hardware if you receive a flawed one (ex.: you buy a GF 7800GT, and the cooler doesn't work. You are going to receive a new hardware, because it is your right to have a functional video card, you paid for it.) And using this same logic, the ill-advised consumer goes and buys the S2 license, but believes it is a FINISHED product (after all, that is how regular market works). He can argue that he was cheated, because he expected to get a finished product, and already paid for it. Now, please, note that I'm not saying he will do it or that he must do that. It is only the example, in wich you made a distorted assumption.

Ellis: please, go back and read everything I posted. I am not saying that is my personal opinion. Nor that I wasn't aware of how the game is developed. I just used EXAMPLES of what a regular consumer could believe. If Scawen wants to work 1 day per week, that is his problem, not mine, and I can't affect or change that. He will work the way he feels he will produce better, and I praise that.

I also appreciate their work and their idea. I have bought other simulators, and I play them. The only purpose of this thread was, like Soro said, make this as a thermometer to the developers about what is happening in the rest of the world. Sims are being made, and I guess we just would like to know how LFS is going to fight that. And we already had a direct answer from Scawen.

So, please, don't make assumptions based on a distorted view of what I said. Go back and read all my posts, I never made any afirmation stating that I am unhappy or whatever. I also mentioned my profession, just so people would know that end-user license agreements don't mean a lot when considering the major laws that rule e-commerce.

Quote from Fordman :

But you will, eventually. Scawen said S2 will be released. When, who knows, but IT WILL be released. Now maybe you are confusing this with S3. NOBODY has paid for S3 yet.

But yes, you HAVE paid for S2 and you will receive S2, just when its ready.

Yup. the only way we are not going to receive S2 final is if something REALLY bad happens (I won't even say this here because it could cause some bad luck. lol). But I believe you all understand what I mean).

And no, I'm not confusing with S3. And yes, as already mentioned above, there are people who already paid for S3.

Quote from keiran :

Okay then if thats your logic then I'll go and demand Mesh Computers to update my computer illepall

Keiran

Dude, I won't even comment on this. They don't have the need to update your computer. But if you get a flawed hardware they have to trade it for a functional part, right?

Lol

Quote from Fordman :

Just a quick question on this. When haven't you receive what you was "supposed" to? You paid for S2, yes. OK so you are lucky, and you have S2 Alpha and are able to play this before S2 is out. S2 isn't out yet, so yes atm you haven't received what you have paid for, but on the site, it clearly stats, that you are paying in advance, so cannot see the consumer arguement here.

Example: You pay £500 for a new stereo, but only get the amp, as the other parts are not finished. You knew this, but wished to pay upfront. Thats your choice? Same goes for LFS. Its your Choice.

We all know that there are people who buy things without reading one line and expect things to be the regular way (you always pay for a finished product). This people might believe they were cheated in some way, because they received a 'flawed' alpha product.

Also, about the End-User license agreement: that doesn't work as a regular contract. You do not sign that, and it works like a "click-wrap" contract. This is not considered a valid expression of will by the consumer, according to the Model Law on Eletronic Commerce of the UNCITRAL.

Again, this is not my point of view, as I know how LFS is developed and I agreed on paying in advance for a finished product.

Basically, we are thousands of beta testers who already paid for a product we don't know if we are going to receive.

Last edited by Falkowski83, Mon, 12 Dec 2005 17:12.

Vykos, as I already said, I know how LFS works.

And now I want you to go back and see where I demanded things. I didn't made one single demand (perhaps I mentioned about the aero stuff in my fisrt post, but that is aknown issue and I know it's being worked on). I just said that as a consumer I have the right to demand things where I paid for a product and in some ways of viewing it, didn't receive what I was "supposed" to.

And yes, I play other games, I have a life and a lot of work, so LFS isn't a top priority for me. It is just for fun.

I'll just stop now. It doesn't make sense continue this argument when you (or we) are uncapable of understanding what we (or you) are trying to say.

Quote from Scawen :

Uhh, no!

You paid for your S2 license, and you have it. That doesn't entitle you to demand updates. It gives you the right to unlock any versions of S2 as and when they come out. Where in the agreement does it say that you have the right to demand updates?

Let's be clear, you can demand what you like, but all you will do is annoy the developers. We do listen to the community, really a lot. But rushing us and telling us that our way of working is wrong and that we should turn onto a company and employ more people, doesn't help in any way. Because it's the way of working that we have chosen, and we aren't following standard routes, even if they could deliver faster update rates. Like i said before, as we've always said, we're doing this because we like this way of working. That is the reason LFS exists.

We've always delivered what we say we'll deliver and we've always said it takes time. And Vykos is right, that we don't really mind if a good sim comes out that entertains the sim community for a while. We just carry on working on our sim as well.

If you look back at my posts, I never said you should change the way you work. Not a single time. Yes, I have the S2 license. As a costumer, I also have the right to say what I like and I don't like about this product. Maybe the developers will listen, maybe they won't (more likely. It only happens that the devs listen to us here in LFS and with Grey Dog Software - an american company that produces sports pbp titles).

And axus. I know you are a kid, and I know that. I know how the developers are commited to the community. But as I said in another forum, sometimes the level of "worship" we find here is kinda scary. And btw, if you are not aware of, the consumerist law gives me the right to demand things (i'm a lawyer, btw)

And Scawen, just keep working. You know you will have to filter what you read. Take the good and let the bad go unoticed. If you thing I'm a smartass, because I don't post here often, so be it. I really don't care. I just want you to do what your goal is (S3), because until now, no big time company was able to produce the netcode you have (and hey, now I'm being serious: if GTL had the same netcode as LFS, dude, I'd be almost giving up on LFS until major patches and corrections were released).

But well, it seem this is not the place to say some different things about the game or only bring some whishes from people that are in Brazil. The fanboys will never listen, because LFS is the truth, and everything else is nonsense.

Quote from Vykos69 :

No, you dont understand what scawen says: He doesnt care a shit for the market. Doesnt matter if there is nkpro out, if any other game might be better, he'll continue on his LFS-way. He has no need to listen to the customers, that they put pressure on him, to release anything faster. Better you try to understand the LFS-way b4 saying to anyone, that he doesnt understand you. I bet he understood you actually quite well, and he actually explain very well, WHY HE IS NOT listening to your suggestions. Let the market awake (ROFLMAO), it wont change anything on the way LFS is developed.

Here is where you are completely wrong bud. The developers MUST listen to us. WE are CUSTOMERS. We PAID for a PRODUCT.

That sentence alone can make me feel I'm being ripped off for buying an unfinished product while I didn't necessarily knew it was an unfinished product. I'm only making assumptions here, because in my case I knew how LFS was ade and I support it.

I just don't believe it's right when the "community" closes the eyes to everything else, and create something like this stupid worship about a PRODUCT.

Yes, it is a good GAME, but it has a lot of flaws. And hey, if I don't like the game or see games being released that are better (within MY perception), I won't exitate in playing them. And THAT is exactly the problem my friends. The point where the huge companies understand how to make a sim and release products we can only wish Scawen made in 1 year time.

But hey, keep playing. I know I'll receive a physics update. I just don't know when. And I know I have the RIGHT to DEMAND updates, because I PAID for a PRODUCT.

Quote :

lfs reference is reality, nothing else. and soon you gonna see this phrase copied by other sims also. maybe professional reality then.

Kid, is this is true, so LFS fails MISERABLY to deliver what it aims for.

Thanks for the feedback Scawen.

But I have to agree with Soro here. He has valid points: in an unusual way, we are receiving A LOT of good racing sims lately. And while this is good for us, sim racers, it makes people shy away from LFS. Because right now they have a better product elsewhere. When we try to talk about LFS, people will just say: sim? That doesn't feel like a real car, so why should it be called a sim (talking about RWD cars)? And basically, we can't refute that.

I understand the spirit and the soul of LFS. That makes me like it a lot. But well, LFS is a product. People pay money for the product. And people get upset when the product fails to deliver the expectations. This is somehow starting to happen with LFS.

I own GTL, will buy NKP and I am looking forward to GTR2. If they can fix the netcode, that will be a really fun experience to have. For you who doesn't like GTR or say that LFS is THE best without looking to other products, know you are wrong. In Brasil, the GTR league (www.gtrbrasil.com) has a lot of professional drivers there. And a couple of them already played LFS. What is their opinion? That LFS has a lot of flaws in physics and that the setup part of the game isn't working how it does in real life. And they see that part of SIMULATION in the product I mentioned above.

Sorry about the long post, but while LFS is a great GAME, it IS losing space to other product that are being launched right now. And because of that, I believe the devs should aim their goals more directly. What could happen if they don't, and they probably won't (as Scawen said): the community will become smaller, until it gets to the point where the devs can't make a iving from this title. Yes, that is worst case scenario, but it is a possibility.

Take this as a constructive criticism and not as free flaming aimed to the devs or the game or the community. After all, I am a big fan of the product and I am a part of the community as well.

Just added myself there. Lone guy in Brazil so far. lol

That's exactly what I was going to say: Grand Prix Masters. I mean, Fittipaldi still is a fast dude. lol

Thanks for the feedback guys!

Hey guys.

I desperatedly need a good (or not really that good) template for the FXO. Does the S1 template works fine for S2? If the answer is negative, where I can find one FXO Template?

Already searched on Masterz Skinnerz, but didn't find anything there (only for the FXR).

Thanks!