Cross-karts would be very much fun on RallyX tracks.. More intensive and easier dirt action than with bigger and heavier wrc/rallycross cars.

Basically it's very light weight tube chassis kart car with powerful high rpm motorcycle engine and long and soft suspension.

These are in finish, sorry about that:
http://www.ph-video.com/videot/CrossKarts.wmv
http://www.bull-speed.com/

I would also love to see ice tracks with snow banks, but maybe there is too small target audience for that?

Sounds very interesting, actually it's pretty much the same i planned years ago but never hand enough time/motivation to actually implement it.

Too bad the web pages are in germany..

I'm gonna try this today, hope there is some action. Love to drive rallycross for a change, much more intensive action. What if there are more than 5 drivers online, are there multiple starts and best ones goes to final or how it's handled?

Hello.. this is an inquiry if there are other interested beond me about this kind of racing. All of these are suggestions, and if you have any kind of comments, ideas, suggestions or questions please reply.

-- INTRODUCTION --

Allmost all leagues are more or less endurance, meaning races are LONG, and you have to drive smoothly and avoid mistakes. Now, that is ok, and that is what track racing mostly is. But personally i also like short fast races, where you can try to make a little bit more dangerous passes, and take more risks. No need to drive in the rear bumber for 10 laps and wait for passing opportunity. To me it's more entertaining.

My idea is allmost an opposite to endurance. There would be several short (like 3-5 laps) sprint race starts in one event.

Ok, so there would be an event day with multiple starts. Only a few cars in one starts, maybe 4 or 5 or so. The time does not matter, the position you finish will. Everyone have to drive multiple starts, so each driver drives once against everyone. Then, points are given from each start according to finish position. This also means, everyone have to start at least once from each grid position. So no qualify is needed.

If you want to win the event, you have to be able to drive from last grid to the victory in a few laps.. or maybe not, if anyone else isn't doing it either. The point is, you have to be fast AND you have to be able to make fast and impressive passes. This means a lot more intensive and tighter racing than in long races where you sometimes are alone in your lap. It also means more mistakes will happen, so if you want to win you will have to be able to take controlled risks, make very fast decisions, and dodge the ones who aren't able to do it and spin/crash in front/side of you.

Of course a little bit luck is needed, but good drivers allways have some. And when driving multiple starts, luck factor is reduced dramatically. It's better to finish every race at second position than win one and finish at last on others.

This wouldn't be just a new type of season, but also a new type of racing. Also single events can (and would) be organized.

If you are still interested, keep reading...

Firstly, im not starting a season yet. A couple "beta events" HAVE to be organized before we can even consider a season. Too see how this goes on practice. And i know there are some issues, but i think i can work them all out.


-- HOW THE EVENT IS EXECUTED --

So, everyone drives against everyone. This means, if there is 16 cars and 4 car in a start, there will be 5 starts for everyone. This means everyone starts from each grid once. Then the grid position of fifth start is determined by the amount of points acquired from the preceding four starts. So no qualify is needed at all. The key to the succeed from the start is finish position, not the time. Amount of points gained from the one start maybe (1. 3points, 2. 2points, 3. 1points, 4. no points). These can be adjusted later.. those affects pretty much to the strategy needed in starts. If first place is worth of two second places, winning the start were you are on the pole position is more important than ability to pass your way from the last grid to the second place for example.

After the five rounds are driven, there will be some kind of finals. Maybe a four best drivers will drive two rounds, grid position is based on points at first round. At second round it could be reversed grid order. So again, you have to be able to drive fast AND make fast passes if you want to win the finals.

Then, when driving a season, season points are given according to final position. Position of four best drivers are determined in the final round, position of others is based to the event points.


-- CARS AND TRACKS --

I was thinking that the events should be in short open tracks, where is some room to pass. Both tracks, rallyX and tarmac are included in the season. You can choose your car in the begin, and you will have to drive every event with the same car, including the rallyX and tarmac races.

The allowed cars may be GTT, FXO and RB4. At the begin at least.. different car classes can be added if there are enough interest and racers. Maybe a tarmac only league with GTR cars. Maybe a karting league with formulas..


-- TECHINAL ISSUES --

-- AREA OF EVENT APPLICATION --

Ok, in real world on this kind of events all competitors are on the area of event, waiting for their own starts and maybe watching others. First issue is, what is the "area of event". I really don't like the idea of 30 competitors sitting on LFS server when only four of them are driving at the time. That would cause too much hazzle.

So, we need somekind of application that is our "area of event". Which gathers all competitors to the one place, and shows real-time info of what is happening and when is my turn to drive etc..

Following features required pops in to my mind:

- firstly, all competitors have to login into it

- it must be linked to server via InSim. We can use LFSSpectator, so every competitor (and maybe specators?) is able to see how other starts are going on real-time.

- there must be some kind of chat

- there must be real-time updating results of each starts, and list showing incoming starts. when you are logged in, you can see when you have to drive. also a overall results of the event are visible, and every other statistic info you will want to see.

- then, when it's your turn to drive, a button or link or whatever which starts the game and connects directly to the correct server. The password of server may be automatically changing to the every start, and the password is included in the button/link, so only drivers who are driving in the particular start knows the password.


So, in practice it goes like this:

You login to the application when the event is starting. In there you easily see when it's your turn to drive. Then you can chat with others, watch the rounds with LFSSpectator, or go watch tv or make dinner or whatever you want to. Just be sure you are on your computer when it's your time to drive! Maybe some kind of alarm is good, you computer starts to yell when it's your turn.

Then, finally when it's your turn, the magic "LFS launcher button" is enabled and when you click it you will go directly to the correct server. The grid order have to be organized manually i think, every competitor have to join in the right order. An InSim app can take care of this, it will tell the grid order, and will not start the race until the order is correct. Maybe one human race-leader is required on the server, maybe an InSim app can take care of everything, dunno yet.

Then you drive the round, and after everyone is finished you will leave the server and go back to the "Area of event" -application. Then you start waiting your next start, and so on... InSim app can make sure everyone leaves the server when round is ended (kicks them out).

When all rounds are drove, finalists are calculated by the application. Then each of them uses the same magic button to drive.


-- HOWTO DO THE APPLICATION --

Mkay, it's obvious that we need a one server and client for every competitor. With the client, competitor logins to the server and we are ready to rock'n'roll.

Currently im between two different implementations. First one is web-portal, with some java applets. In the web-server there is a some kind of database which keeps tracks on each results etc..

Advantages:

- Competitors do not have to download any client application, web-server is enough.

Disadvantages:

- It's hard to set up a new server, web-server is needed.
- realtime updating gui is not that good


Second choice is two windows applications, client and server.

Advantages:

- It's easy to everone for set up a new server. Just start the server application and make some configuration
- It's possible to design better GUI, which updates realtime immetiadely when something happens.

Disadvantages:

- Every competitor need to download the client application


Personally i prefer windows application over the web-portal. And for me it's easier to implement, coz i know the Win32 api like my own pockets (working as software engineer for 6 year now).


What i like to know is, are you interested in that kind of racing? I can implement the applications, if enough people are interested to race like this. Also i will release those apps as freeware, so everyone can arrange a sprint events easily. Maybe even a some kind of "main server" would be cool, so you can start a public "sprintracing server", and everyone can search those with their own clients, and join.

Duh, have to take it easy. First step will be see if you are interested. If you are, i will wrote some kind of beta apps to see if this actually works in practice. Then a few individual beta event are arraged. Then maybe we can start a league...

Now, do you got any comments, suggestions, questions, anything about this? Or are you willing to help me in some (any) way?

Last edited by mdmx, Thu 22 Sep 2005, 11:02. Reason : typo fixes

Quote from r4ptor :

X-Ter,
But on online sessions almost everyone was driving pumped up cars - all because of a simple "cheat" wich gives the player 2 timnes the credits he would ever need :|

This is only a matter of proper implementation. Im not familiar with rF, but let me guess, same credits are shared between single player and multiplayer modes?

In singleplayer, that kind of "hacks" are possible. And impossible to prevent. But in multiplayer it's different. If the player credits are stored and calculated in a server (we allready got LFSWorld), it's allmost impossible to do any kind of hack which would allow you to gain extra credits. It would require you to hack the actual LFSWorld server. And messing with the game is allready prevented in LFS online mode, you can't use any car mods etc.. including the ones affecting credits gain.

What comes to grip generally, i think the most important thing missing from LFS is G-forces, and we will never get them. Many peoples seems to compare LFS cars to their IRL cars. It's just isn't that ez think to do. You can't do the comparision based to what you feel in your bottom. Coz you are lacking that feeling in LFS. Also the sense of speed you see with your eyes is an issue. In real live your view of vision is much wider than in LFS, which means it seems you are going way faster with your IRL car than in LFS when going actually the same speed.

16:9 monitor may help with that, or using 3 monitors simulteousnly.

Take your IRL car and go to the parking area. Try to drive a circle. How fast you can do (see your speedometer), and what is the radius of that circle? Now, do the same in LFS. You will see that there is much much more grip in LFS, you just don't feel or see it in the same level than IRL.

Quote from JeffR :

Let me first state that I bought LFS S1 and S2, and plan to buy S3, but I think there are some issues with LFS:

The cars in LFS over react when the tires are pushed just a bit past the limits.

S2 is a big improvement over S1 in this aspect of the tire model, but it still isn't quite right yet. I don't know how LFS does it's tire physics, but in real life, there is no sudden transition from static (not slipping) to dynamic
etc...

It really depends on your tires and suspension you know. Generally, the more grip you have, the more you lose when sliding. The less grip you have, the less you lose when sliding. In racing cars, depending on setups, there is plenty of grip, much more than normal road car. Which means, you lose it more when starting to slide.

It's very ez to notice IRL, just drive on gravel and tarmac to the limit and drift a bit. On tarmac, the edge between grip and slide is much much more than on gravel. It's harder to drift on tarmac than on gravel.

Also you may try different tyres. I've got two set of tyres in my own car. 195 50R16 and 225 30R18. I use larger ones when im driving on the track. They give me much more grip, but it's much harder to drift with them. Coz when they lose it, they really _lose_ it. Also got my winter tyres, they are very smooth to drive on tarmac. They slide and wheeze all the time when going fast to the corner. It's very easy to drift with them, coz they lose grip so smoothly.. You got plenty of time to react. But in the other hand, they don't have much of it in the first place.

But in LFS the tyres maybe lose a little bit too much of it, im not sure. It's really hard to say, when you don't feel the G's.

Maybe if we take a equal IRL racing car and drive it with data logging systems, and then make the same in LFS, and compare the logged data, we can see.

Quote from JeffR :

tires take too long to regain grip after going off track

In real life, race cars often go off track, and back on track, and it doesn't take as long for grip to return as it does in LFS. If a race car travels over a wet patch (grass for example), the tires lose little heat, and dry up very quickly once back on the road, and at most tracks, they don't water the grass just before a race. Gravel traps use fairly large pebbles to prevent them from getting stuck into the tires and later flung off at other drivers.

Again, try this with your IRL road car:

- First try to drift in dry tarmac (not sure how much HP you got?)..
- Then drive thru a grass, maybe sliding a bit, like in LFS
- Then go back to the tarmac.. take it ez, i'm not responsible if you crash. The difference is HUGE!

But maybe it takes a bit too long before your tires cleans in LFS.

Quote from JeffR :

The tires in LFS heat up much too quickly when sliding

Not much to explain here, the model just seems to be wrong. The hot spots seem to develop almost instantly, and yet take a long time to dissapate.

God damnit, haven't you ever slide with a car IRL? Just slide a few seconds on tarmac, go out immetiadely, and feel your tyres. They are actually melting. Now, in your car i doubt you got slicks on it. The more grip, the more heat when sliding. So racing tyres heats up even a more than road tyres, a way more.

Again, it may take too long to cool down in LFS. Havent tried how long it takes if you drive slowly.

Quote from JeffR :

Segemented tire model

Again I don't know how this is implemented, but a contact patch varies in size depending the forces acting on it (downforce and accelerations), and the circumference of a tire flows continously through the contact patch, not in segments. If you lock up the tires under braking, even for a fairly short period, then look at tire temps while moving slowly, you can see a very small hot spot "segment". This isn't realistic.

Actually, rubber is very damn good heat isolator. But this is true, it's too good in LFS. The hotspot should start to spread accross the tire. Not much, but some.

Last edited by mdmx, Fri 16 Sep 2005, 07:31.

:iagree:
I totally agree with you. What is missing on LFS is different types of gearboxes. In racing cars they allmost always have a sequental gearbox. Which means, you don't have to clutch (auto or manual ) when shifting. Clutching takes too much time.

Also in sequential gearbox there is no 'N' (no gear on) between different gears. Sequential racing gearbox got way different syncronization, there is two gears "on" all the time. And when u shift, u actually just pick another one of those two. So the revs don't go high even if you don't lift the throttle when shifting. This also affects very much of handling and driving style. In LFS it's kinda hard to shift when turning.

Another think that video proofs, and which i and many of us allready knew, is the very bad sound engine of LSF.. the racing gearbox and differentials makes VERY bad noise when accelerating on high speeds. RBR modelled this moderated, but in LFS it's very bad.

If LFS dev team didn't have time or oppoturnity to go sit in a real racing car for a few laps, then at least they should be watching that kind of videos. :bullwhip:

Last edited by mdmx, Fri 16 Sep 2005, 06:32.

Quote from X-Ter :

...if it's possible, that is.

We all have to deal with the very common first turn crashes and ever present wreckers in servers all over the place. And we've all been trying to figure out a use for the credits. What if we could have something about like this:

There is a good idea behind this.. but i think it need to be refine. It's not that simple. I think most of racers don't know the rules. Actually, there are no rules, except the ones defined in leagues.

I would love to see some kind of "online career mode". Never seen in racing sims before, but often in war fps and in rpg.

In real live, you have to start from the bottom. Drive the slowest cars. And you have to drive a licence.

So, i would love to see something like this:
More advanced "Lessons", where you have to learn handling of a car, and also the _RULES_ of racing. Then, before you can go racing online at all, you have to pass some kind of test. Not too hard, but you have to have basic skills to handle the car, and basic knowledge of rules.

Then you are able to drive online with GT, GTI and maybe some other slow ez to handle cars. Then, after you _FINISH_ enough online races, you can take faster car. Maybe somekind of test in there also?

Also restarting race with clicking 'Pit' and 'Join' should be forbidden on every server. If you click 'Pit' and abort, you should not be able to join again.

Some kind of experience system maybe cool.. like credits, but not. You gain experience when you drive fast hotlaps, or when you finish races online. Then experience limit can be added to server.

Maybe a AI referee, which can give black flags to racers who breaks the rules. But before that, rules must be defined. And lessons need to be add, to learn the rules. When you break the rules experience can be negated.

Something like that.. don't have time to go into more details. In the nutshell, online-career.

Quote from hanky42 :

well the fuse to it could blow and cause it to stop working im not sure how that works but ive heard of it happening and i just thought it would throw it up in the air. And yeah bad wheel bearings and coil packs dieing would be cool.

Rev limiter can break sometimes, that is true. But it got nothing to do with of how much you push your car. The fuse could blow? The fuses are usually used to protect the wirings. If some electronic component breaks and shortcuts the circuit, fuses prevent wires from setting up on fire. When do rev limiters break? When there is a factory flaw in some component of it. Which is _VERY_ rare in thinks like racing car when high quality comps are used. It can also break in very high impact, but it doesn't matter anymore, coz impact have to be high enough to break the entire car. Maybe it can even break on very long lasting high power vibration. But again, i think something else will break before it.

What comes to whell bearings breaking, it got nothing to do with steering either. It's more like a mistake in the pits, or again, factory flaw.

What comes to F1's breaking all the time.. mechanicals are pushing the every bit of the car to it's limits. And sometimes they push it too much. Sometimes they cut too much metal off the cardan axel and it will break. To simulate that in the LFS, you should be able to cut and turn every part in the car freely. Then physics engine should know the accurate properties of each metal compound used, how strain and temperature affects to them, etc.. And then engine should simulate the whole car in molecule level. And that would be impossible to simulate, in real-time at least.

Last edited by mdmx, Mon 12 Sep 2005, 07:34.

Hell no it's not possible to send direct positions to the server At least i don't think so. And the idea of ghost car is, it's a ghost. You can drive thru it.

But could it be possible to generate AI file from replay. I don't know how accurate the driving lines, braking points etc are defined in the AI file.

It's also possible to implement this as a D3D hack, which adds ghost car object into the lfs in-race scene. Good enough, when going online, server checks crc of loaded dll's etc, so i think this can't be used as online hack. I sure hope it can't, i will not implement/release it if it can. MP cheating ruins the game.

Maybe devs could give us some comments?

Quote from tek2000 :

Yeah to make a mod out of it would be great plus the feature wont be in the game and tristancliffe can stay playing and must not leave the game and we can enjoy ghostcars.
But is there the possibility to get into the game that deep.

But I think it could be possible to hack a client to do just that.
why not connect a ghost car client that reads a telemetry file and sends exactly that data to the server.
On another client you could drive against this telemetry client.
The question is, is it possible to send any position to the server, or will the server calculate the physics , and prevent that from happening as this would also allow cheating .

Stefan

Quote from tristancliffe :

I don't want the experience to be 'as easy as possible'. If it was I'd stop playing. I play LFS for the challenge. The challenge of driving fast. The challenge of passing. The challenge of pit strategy. The challange of improve myself.

Personally (and I know most people don't agree with me) I think a ghost car will make beating times easier. You've got something to chase and copy.

As I said earlier I KNOW LFS has to have certain unrealistic bits to make it playable on a small screen with no g-forces. but this is GOING TO FAR.

I'm very very very pleased that it is a patented idea, and hope I never see it in LFS.

But ultimately less satisfying. And I bet you'd be unable to go the same speed without something to follow. So in that respect it's tantermount (sp?) to cheating.

I don't have enough time to practice, and i think most of players have same problem. And it's also very boring to drive against clock. Ghost car would make learning progress even a little bit faster, and more fun. Which means there will be more avarage players, which can't be bad thing for the community.

Actually ghost cars will only help newbies, not the pros. It would make it easier to practice new track. To learn braking points, cornering speeds etc.. It will not help you beat WR, coz when you drive very close to it, it must disappear or it will block you vision and ruin your concenration. And after you are pro or close to it, you know each track and each braking point, you know when you make mistake even without ghostcar. You know immetiadely if you take corner 5mph too slow, etc.. This feature would only help newbies to learn tracks and become avarage player. Again, this can't be a bad think.

I know this from prev games. For example in RBR, i used ghost cars when i was learning tracks. They were allways on when i was newbie on that game. Then, when my times started to be close to WR's, i decided to turn it off. Coz it was only in the way, it did no good, coz i allready knew the tracks and knew immetiadely when i made even a little mistake.

And what comes to patent... What if we development this feature as mod and release it as freeware? It would be possible..

All we need is:
- Replay parser (allready done in all analyzers etc)
- Direct3D hack (API Hook) to draw ghost car (allready done in many other games)
- Car model, or this can even be a box, or what ever. No need to be a real car. A box which color changes when braking / throttling / etc..

What ya say? I can develop some parts, but im not familiar with D3D. If somebody is willing to develop a D3D hook which draws object over the game, which can be controlled by some ez interface, I can do code which controls the object according to data from replay. Like an UI - Engine architecture.

So, anyone who is familiar with D3D and api hooks, and wants this feature, contact me and let's do it! illepall

Last edited by mdmx, Thu 8 Sep 2005, 10:39.

Quote from Blackout :

How can you be so sure about that?

I just am.. I am programmer myself, and could very easily implement such a feature if i've got source codes of LFS. Pretty easy to hack even without sources, just hook a button u want to bind it and throttle pedal from direct input. When "deactived", scale throttle to let's say 0.9 from what it is, and so on.

Most of you guys just doesn't seem to get it. It got nothing to do with vtec or any other mechanical issue in the engine. It got nothing to do with adding more horsepowers to FO8. It hell no got nothing to do with NOX, which also adds more hp (which btw is a very nice and fun thing in IRL street racing car). It got nothing to do with adding more hp to engine.

More like oppisite, it LIMITS the horsepower. And it allows you to use full power only a 60sec or so in a race. Which adds more strategic element to a race. You should make decision when to use it. If used in wrong place, it can even ruin your race. And it's from REAL live racing, nothing to do with KITT turbobooster.. Are u guys stupid or what? Very funny replys. Also it got NOTHING to do with current FO8 racing, it would be a whole other "gaming mode".

Sure it makes races more fun to spectators.. does it make them more fun to drivers as well? Dunno... i might like it, or maybe not, but hell no it's not going to harm _my_ gaming experience in any way, i don't have to play "push-to-pass" races if i don't want to. But with this feature the long races would not be so deadly boring they are now. If this is a serious racing sim, i think all kind of races should be simulated.

That is really easy feature to implement btw.. i might like it.

Notes are not very practical when goin 200kmh.. it could be a radio message from the pits, telling you pace notes. It's totally possible to do in IRL practicing too. And it is the option which would be available only in practice mode! Not in the multiplayer or hotlapping.

But, im gonna develop a practicing "util", which allows you to generate a track layout showing the driving line & brake/turn/acc points from the replay file.

It makes it easier for a NEWBIES like me to practice track, it wount help pro's at all. That's why i think pro's dont like it. But it does make it a little bit easier to become a pro, or maybe not, dunno. At least it makes it a little bit easier to practice new track.

Firstly im generating normal layout with coils/tyres or whateva to show the line from the replay, then maybe a "ghost car" option. Which of course arent available in the online, or in the hotlapping.

Some may concider those as a cheats, but are they? They don't help your online games at all, they just make it a little bit easier to practice. And reduces the large amount of time needed to be a good player, even a little bit. Not many of us have time to spent 10hours in a day to practice.

I would LOVE to see: Ghost car from replay / Driving line from replay -options in S3. And of course only available in PRACTICE.. those help practicing, which means there will be more good players, which is a good thing for everyone..

Some may say those doesn't fit in the sim.. well.. may be right. Dunno how formula one drivers practice. But with the modern technology, it would be completely possible to see ghost car or driving line from another drive. only requires LCD glasses and GPS.

Still, maybe it's too arcade. But it's only in practice. And it wount help anybody who is allready close to WR, it only helps NEWBIES! Why is that such a bad thing?

This is what i really wanted to see in hotlapping mode.. When you improve your time, game would ask if i want to upload hotlap replay or not. Or maybe even an option to upload it automatically.

Also it would be very nice to see hotlapping charts in game, maybe after finishing your session u could see your position. Maybe, you could even see your split times compared to your previous best, or maybe even to WR.

In shortly, "Online hotlapping" game mode... it's very annoying to upload replays, and open web sites to compare your times to others. Why it can't be integrated into game? I actually though it would, and was kinda disappointed when it wasn't. But we are still in alpha, who knows..