The online racing simulator
to sum up my points (longer answer to multiple comments)
Quote from TAYLOR-MANIA :Well i agree with practically all of what's been said here (especially the first post) & i didn't properly read the whole thread, but anyway... i have a question...

How realistic is it of us to expect such environmental changes that's been mentioned? I mean surely these things can't have been overlooked in the quest of making the most realistic racing sim, so why have they been [seemingly] overlooked by all sim developers? Will we ever see such detail i wonder...?

Quote from Toddshooter :I imagine they haven't been implimented because it would be a monumental task to code. Shifting weather patterns and track temp changes seem to me to be a very complicated thing. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

well at least - judging by what has been said in this thread from people with insight in programming - it would be another grand, yet not undoable and thus reasonably achievable thing to start doing.

Quote from NightShift :On a sidenote, this has been my thought for quite some time. We have a wind setting within a limited aero model, so why not introduce a temperature setting too?

If you leave a car sitting in the pits for some time, the tyres will cool down so LFS is already aware of an ambient temperature in its innards.

It would be great on servers with random conditions (e.g. CTRA). During hot 'days', people would be forced to play with tyre pressures or switch to R2 or Road Normal from R1 and Supers, while cold days would require a little more attention because of reduced grip.

As an immediate consequence, drivers would need to be more careful and develop a little flexibility when it comes to track conditions, effectively countering the sealed-set/drive-always-the-same approach which is common now.

In short, it would be a first important step towards a truly dynamic environment, in terms of player development.

I guess that this reflects most of Becky's thoughts from the open letter quite nicely and in order. And actually I feel about the same way. The challenge should be placed further away from finding that "perfect setup" and focus on driving and driving skills a lot more than at today's state.

Quote from TAYLOR-MANIA :Yeah i see what you mean about the low grip situations in dry conditions...
Quite frankly though, that level of detail is just so far from anything we currently have that i really struggle to see it becoming a reality.

Not that I don't wish for such detail, or that it's the wrong path to take, or that it will never happen... but it's such a massive leap (almost revolutionary!) to add such a great deal of depth to the sim racing experience.
It's totally beyond todays sim standards & developing mentality... it seems so far beyond i'd say that it's out of reach right now.

For it to be achieved would require a fairly considerable shift in mentality (and hard work) from developers to even begin paying attention to the most basic of environmental factors.
Until they do focus on & get the basics sorted, the details you're talking about seem rather inaccessible to me.

I think you're spot-on stating that mentality in development is still so far off these ideas. But I disagree that it is about the projected work one has realised would bee un-doable with today's technology.

It has been mentioned before: the way how a slippery (meant: changing) condition is derived in detail does not matter much. It doesn't have to be a super-computer-exclusive real-time computation but can be pretty much simplified in it's details allowing for standard system with reasonable computing power to cope just well.
In the bottom line it's the resulting influence on the drivers and the whole race that really matters. We want to have these "effects" to "behave" as close to real life as possible in order to give us a racing experience as close to RL as possible.

After all when driving lfs for a longer periode of time there will eventually come a point where you think: "this pace, that the WR-holder puts into a combo is just unreal. If I was to challenge that track-time I would have to depart from a realistic driving-style and just hunt for the flaws in the physics/environment department - just like that other bloke does it."

A dynamic environment would not only change that condition for the better but at the same time have it's effects on online racing as it would then prove impossible to race with a hotlap set as they tend to be a LOT trickier to handle under not-ideal (clear "fast-line") conditions in a race. It would bring the fast hotlappers back closer to the ones focusing on the racing action: it would simply improve online-racing culture to resemble much better to the real thing.

The reason that sim-developers didn't come across a positive decision to try this is - in my eyes - very simple:
MONEY. It would certainly cost the part to develope such a thing. Since sim-racing is still a very young "sport" people buying a sim tended to be short-time-users, as they frequently moved on to the next-in-line "hot-product" after a few months or maybe years. Hence the return on investment would be limited given that the market (IMO with good reason) would simply reject any heavily over-prised product to hit the shelves.

With the introduction of sims like LFS, rFactor or even iRacing this thinking might prove to become a thing of a past. So maybe Becky's "open letter" is just a redundant bit of information that the devs themselves are already "on" as we speak. Or maybe not. How would we know?
However, in my opinion, this certainly is the way to strive for in future attempts. I simply won't buy any new "hot product" anymore just because it may have some nicer graphics or a better sound system. And that's because I have got so fond of actually racing a "Virtual Car" that those aspects, most magazines and review-sites happen to bark about most times, are just heavily irrelevant when adressing the real fun found in racing.

Way to go - yes.
And I believe it will be worth it big-time! As soon as the first one is to achieve a reasonably well-working product giving us all of the above-mentioned, they will have the ability to make some money out of it. It's just that they would be the ones to take the gamble of financing the whole development and the PR first - and against all these glossy magazines which just focus on graphics and such, since you cannot "sreen-shoot" the experience and fun of a real driving-challenge.

My 2 cents
DrBen
Becky,

Your words are true. While having the vehicle dynamics nailed is a lofty goal, it's a goal that I fell is unobtainable so long as we are applying them to a static environment. So much of a cars feel has more to do with how the car is reacting to the environment then how the different parts of the car are reacting to each other. How many of the physics updates have been aimed at improving the driving feel of the cars, especially at and just over the limits?

The answer is a lot. Many of the perceived weird feelings in the physics are most likely due to the environment not an incorrect vehicle dynamics model. I would be willing to argue then even back in S1 the physics were close enough to start working on the dynamic aspects of the environment. In the real world which is what sims are trying to simulate, everything in is constant flux. So when we drive our exceptions of how the car is reacting is going to be different then the exact same car in LFS.

In essence every time we tweak the physics to feel more natural we are in fact pushing the physics simulation away from being correct by adding in components that alter the physics to replicate the feeling of driving in a dynamic environment while driving in a static one. In essence it will never be possible to build a correct physics simulation of driving/racing so long as we are building it in a static environment with glass smooth roads, unchanging road surface conditions and unchanging atmospheric conditions.

The environment simulation is the base on which it all needs to be built, without that the rest is just another neat game that feels better then the others. There is currently no sim that has taken this approach. iRacing is closer but it still uses a static environment but at least its tracks surfaces are not like glass, they have character, imperfections and variations in camber/grip. I have yet to see a track surface in LFS that has a crown, uneven surface or difference in grip based on track surface type.

You have a good base but its no where close to where it could be. Keep it up and perhaps it will be what you hope it to be.

FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG