Wow, congrats for skillfully sidestepping the entire argument again
The point is (last time): years in the making and one could shift without using the clutch (and AutoClutch=off)
Consideration: wouldn't it be better skipping som cosmetic stuff (e.g. custom paintjobs), and make clutch work in a more realistic way (we're not talking in absolute terms)?
Conclusion: the obsession about realism is fake, the declared amount of time and money invested in iRacing is fake. For less blunt explanations see my previous post.
In LFS you need to rev match if you're not using the clutch.
In the first public iRacing release, AFAICT, there was no need for it - Reading that had the side effect of some of my body appendages falling off.
That doesn't mean anyone can do whatever cross their minds, especially fanbois and marketing people.
I'm sorry, have you been playing a completely different version of LfS for the last 5 years? When were you able to shift into another gear without revmatching or using any form of clutch?
Again I fail to see how I sidestepped the argument. I admitted the flaw and cared to expand on the subject. It was your conclusions on the fact that were totally off the mark and excessive, and I'm not even gonna argue with the ridiculous "conclusion" that the realism of iRacing or the resources spent on developing it are fake. Based on that clutch fixation I guess you'll change your mind the day they add the mandatory auto-clutch to the Solstice. LFS surely has a more complex system implemented than there is in iRacing, but try for example the clutchless shifting sometime and tell me you could get away with anything like what that allows in a real car. Saying that LFS requires realistic shifting techniques is simply not the truth, and a transmission modeling would hardly be realistic without some form of damage modeling implemented.
And as I said, it's not even the fault of LFS but also the peripherals on the market. The clutch and transmission issues were discussed to some extent on the David Kaemmer interview on the latest issue of AutoSimSport, I suggest you go there next if you really are this interested in the subject: http://www.autosimsport.net/. It's a subject that has been discussed in several multi-page threads on iRacing forums for months, and there will hardly ever be a consensus on what the ideal solutions to the problems would be.
: wouldn't it be better skipping som cosmetic stuff (e.g. custom paintjobs), and make clutch work in a more realistic way (we're not talking in absolute terms)?
The same team doesn't work on those things, so the work on custom paintjobs has taken nothing away from the work on clutch modeling, and not working on either wouldn't make the other progress any faster.
As I said, I read the five rules. I've hardly broken any of them or crossed any lines of decency in any other way.
Yeah, the current numbers aren't exceptional by any measure, but the total number of registered users is 8000-9000, of which about 6000 with an active subscription according to John Henry.
Also, 2-3 years to pay off the initial investment would be an extremely short time, and I don't think many web-based businesses start with such plans. Henry has used a ten-year time span in some of his comments about the future. If they don't get enough people in the service, I believe as you say that they may well restructure it somewhat in the next couple of years (private leagues etc. are coming in any case), but financially iRacing is a special case, as it's also the hobby of its co-founder whose net worth is estimated at 860 million dollars. Of course that doesn't mean he's going to spend his fortune on if it would become apparent it didn't work financially.
Rev matching? Like on downshifts you must mean? On downshfts you need to match the revs or blip the throttle in both sims. But on upshifts it's flatshifting all the way in LFS as it is in iracing with few exceptions. LFS has no clutch damage, it has clutch heat which is not clutch damage.
Both are racing sims and therefore comparable. LFS costs less, that's already one comparison.
So LFS is fake as well because in the latest patch scawen has focused on making the rims look slightly better instead of making the real suspension model for sciroppo available in LFS?
I dunno. It is very clear that there are lots of stuff missing in iracing, even very basic stuff like flatspots, saved replays or that basic drivetrain model with damage and proper clutch. But they at iracing are pushing out stuff at pace which would take 15 times as long in the world of LFS. Surely it is a problem that you still have to pay full subscription fees for that unfished version we are running today but it is already the best sim on many areas so it isn't that bad.
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As for another totally different thing about iracing. As some of you may know, you can get to C lisence in iracing now in just 4 weeks*. C lisence allows you to drive B class cars with high enough safety racing. And B class cars are the second fastest cars in iracing so it doesn't take even much time to get into racing the car you want. So you can get up to C in just 29 days.
* Needs to be timed well though and the window for this is open only once in 12 weeks during the 4 week mid-season in the middle of the 12 week. 1 day in rookie then promotion to D. Then 4 weeks in D and then you're at C if you meet the requirements. The promotions are done at the end of the "fun week" so one needs to buy another month to be able to take full adventage of the C lisence.
There seems to be a general problem in comprehension lately...
I'll try explaining it so everybody understands:
When you shift gears in a normal H-gate box car in LfS, you either have to a) use the pedal/button assigned to the clutch, b) have the autoclutch engage the clutch for you or c) wait/play with the throttle until the revs are exactly matched for the next gear to be engaged...
Now in iRacing, you just select the next gear and it magically appears, no clutching or revmatching of any kind needed... This popped up not just here, but I've seen someone mentioning it on RSC as well...
Sure, it's not a make or brake-feature, but it makes you wonder how many other shortcuts have been taken that may not be as apparent, when supposedly so much is spent on details...
I do agree that they should concentrate on the physical aspects of the sim rather than new cars and tracks etc. You would think accurate tramsmission modelling would be up there with their top priorities. Random engine failure is not enough when there are issues with the tyres, break temperatures and transmission. I suppose iracing could argue that it's a racing sim and not an engineering sim
Except not really... I've had more good races in a few months of iRacing than I have in many years of LFS. iRacing has that fun factor, whereas LFS seems... almost over-engineered.
The same way you can compare a Renault Clio with a BMW serie 5. After all they're both cars... But I don´t think people expect the same from one or the other. The point I was trying to make, is that, when you launch a product that´s much more expensive than the competition, you really need to deliver something special and substancially better than everything else. I really don´t think IRacing has achieved that, and once the novelty and marketing "crap" wears off, people will start to look to IRacing with a different perspective... So, instead of announcing new cars and tracks, to make subscribers spend even more money in IRacing, they should concentrate in optimizing their simulator, so it really stands out from their competition. Otherwise, I believe that their userbase, will stay the same that already is, or even became smaller when people start to think twice before renewing their subscription.
You've described the exact opposite of my experience. The fun factor is the one thing that's completely missing from iRacing. The fun factor is the thing that always brings me back to LFS.
The funny thing is, all my best performances and results with iRacing happen on the 24hours of fun days. They are fun Why on earth they cant have a permanent "fun" server running i have no idea.
Hi. Care to explain why please?
I cant see the explanation why one cant drive with some friends in the server and at the time they want. I just don't get it. After all this is just a online pc game in the end.
I'm curious to hear this one too. Seems like the same argument that LFS racers use against cruisers and drifters. At the end of the day, there's nothing to substantiate those arguments besides snobbery and arrogance. Do iRacing fans look at pickup racing as menial, irrelevent, beneath them etc? If so, I'll certainly have to redefine my opinion of iRacing.
FWIW, running the CTRA, we depend entirely on other servers offering alternatives to the thing we offer. LFS would be dismal if it only had CTRA type servers. I think it's desperately important that there's something to meet the driver's mood.. if it's random pickup or structured racing, leagues or mucking about with team mates.. a well-rounded sim provides for all of these aspects, surely?
The people who buy 5 series or Clios don't see them as options, they are totally different cars for different purpose. A better comparison would be an old italian supercar (iracing) and a beetle (lfs). The italian car is a pleasure to drive, makes great sound and handles nice but has few quirks you need to learn with. One is the constant need for repairs which end up costing money, other is the new parts available for it which again cost money but aren't really that necessary. But at the same time you can rest assured that all faults are fixed, at some point. With the beetle you can take your friends along to the beach unlike with the italian car which has only one door. And you don't need to pay anything else, there are no spare parts to buy or other kits to add. You just have it serviced every 6 months at which point they at the shop change one tenth of your motor oil.
Though the beetle makes you look a bit simple and maybe a bit too dedicated and at times you are not feeling welcome at gas stations where you meet other car owners. When you mention that you drive a beetle, that is. Constantly. Especially the 2CV owners are tired to death listening you telling them how reliable the beetle is. Especially because with the 2CV it is pure luck whether your car either runs totally fine or crases every 2 seconds. Two kinds of versions of that car were made, ones that run and others than don't. All the time or not at all. And the Lada owners really don't like how you always tell them how much better the beetle drives and how you can actually feel the tires and suspensions working, also at the same time telling them that none of the Ladas can't even drive like a car because the chassis they are built on is made and designed decades ago. The lada owners just laugh back you, making snotty comments about how the kids like to drift the beetles on their back yards and how some of the beetle drivers just driven around circles wearing police uniforms. At this point the mini drivers usually leave because they have been through this already so many times. After all, the mini was the first and was the legendary and still is even if most have started liking the italian car better, just like some of the others as well.
Only the ford escort drivers sit in their corner silently smiling ear to ear. They have the best car when you go outside official race tracks, to normal gravel roads - and drive fast. But they know that their car is useless on tarmac so after the others have left the smiles dry out and furnitures start to fly.
But the beetle comes with roof rack to which you can tie your own gas station (insim and forum) so you can chat with your mates without the others ever have to listen you again .
But tbh you might want some changes to the beetle, after all, there hasn't been anything done to the car in past few years when you have had it serviced, except the oil checks. They hardly even talk to you at the shop, one person of the staff hasn't even been seen in years and that is the guy who should have fixed some dents on your car.
Iracing are announcing new stuff frequently but you don't need to buy it. For example, there is practically even no point to buy the new watkins glen track because you can't race on it, just hotlap alone. Naturally the track might be used on the fun weeks but that's just fair to those who have bought it.
I'm guessing it's the same wthing as it is with leagues. They at iracing are afraid that people might find those systems more fun than the current scheduled pickup racing system .
But then again, I find the pickup racing fun, but that's just the silverado
I'm sure organised leagues may be fine, but to the majority of people who can afford to continuously pay for iRacing, I'm sure they can set the free time to do so, because none of them would have jobs.
Never under estimate the power of marketing. LFS is too gamey in appearance, in audience, and in experience. I bet that accounts for 90% of iRacing's perceived superiority.
First of all, thanks for such a well tought and well written post. Altough I still can´t see what´s so special and different in IRacing. After all, besides the laser scanned tracks, what has IRacing done that hasn´t been done before, even considering that they might have done it a little better... I also see that you have a lot of faith in their development, wich leads to question why, after 5 years of development and millions of dollars spent, some features are still missing, and what evidence is there that they will achieve it in a short period of time. So, I can only offer you an advice... Try to look at IRacing based on what it is, and not based on your frustation with LFS. I sincerely hope that the people in the IRacing staff work to have a product that will succeed based on their strenghts and not on there competitors weakness, or they will fail completely...
As I'm now an ardent iRacer I would much appreciate it if any of you irrelevant LFS folks that should like to contact me in the future do so through my PA and not directly, there is a chain of command now implimented.
We must not be seen, under any circumstances, down at the tennis club with my new iRacing chums chatting directly to LFS'ers.
I can't say for others, but in fact I treat the current iRacing system pretty much as pickup races with some added features that make it easier to get into and more exciting, as well as in general provide much cleaner racing in my experience. That's pretty much what I was looking for in a sim anyway in addition to a realistic physics model.
I'll give an example: I fired up the LFS demo, joined a server and quickly found out that compared to the guys racing there I sucked, badly, and would suck probably no matter how much I practiced. That kind of an experience raises the questions: how would I find a group that suited my skill level and would I be able to find such a group no matter when I felt like I wanted to have a race.
The iRacing rating system seems to give an easy answer to those questions for me, as long as there are enough racers registered. Others treat the system more seriously (probably at least many of those who have a chance of winning some championships...) and probably wouldn't compare it with pickup races the same way as I do, but frankly for a real championship or league feel I think it's far from optimal. There's too much chance involved. But as the basis of the service and as a ladder system for the upcoming Pro series the current championship system should work very well in any case.
I mostly agree with this, and currently iRacing is lacking in many of those aspects, which of course limits its appeal to many groups of racers.
I don't know if anyone cars about these but I did some more laps around Barber in the Silverado. Best so far 1:30:359 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=If5i3EvUtHg&fmt=18
Anyone else hotlapping the silverado?
I think I'll try Sebring next
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