That sentence with your... let's say dubious taste in cars in mind makes me think that people like you (no worries, they seem to make up the majority of people) are the cause why mainstream music is shit.
You can't really lump hip hop and rap together anyway, even if for the most part the two genres are driven by absolute crap sounds made by absolute crap "artists". Hip Hop is very much trying to be musical, Rap is just trying to promote really poor fashion and bring confidence to every talentless egomaniac who dreams of being a star among his peers. Rap is very stereotypical, Hip Hop is much harder to nail down than that.
There are particular rhythms in some Hip Hop which are quite genius and can not be found in any other modern music. Hip Hop also has evolved over the years and continues to do so.
Rap is no better than a kid crying for an ice cream over and over and over.
If you want to think of Grandmaster Flash as more or less the "type species" of Rap music, then the genre actually went extinct in the mid-eighties.
Hip Hop, while often as annoying as the sound made by a bag of drowning cats, does generate many new musical ideas and seems to have inspired a genuine and unique dance genre. Quite promising.
Modern music had a shit and laid two stinking nuggets; one was still full of peas and carrots (Hip Hop) and the other was one of those annoying beige numbers that just won't flush no matter how many times you push the button (Rap).
I dunno about music categories that much, therefor i have problems with making a difference between rap and hiphop. However, the explanation that hiphop is much more musical than rap, i can live with that and agree to it. And somehow, Gunn has a point there.
There is stuff that is not so direct with the lyrics that i suppose you'd call rap. Typical Cats is a group which is very poetical in their lyrics. I don't like most of their songs, but there's a few like "snake oil" or "thin red line" which are quite nice. The kind of poetic lyrics i mean can be seen (ok, heard) in the movie Slam for example. I like more clear and direct lyrics, but good rappers are rather poets than posers. IMO.
@ssm - because now he is just like every other rapper, in his early days he was something new on the rap scene, someone who didn't take himself too seriously and had a bit of fun. His old stuff like Stan, My Name Is etc are still very good today but almost all of the stuff he has made post-Without Me has been totally forgettable
While it's obvious that the classics you posted are closer to conventional music than the more modern crap, I still failed to like any of the songs as a whole. It's just the basic elements - rhythmic vocals and looping background, that are a total turn-off for me (This song from a band I like is another good example). I don't mean that these songs suck, no. I just fail to get anything out of them. I don't even understand most of the lyrics at all, as I can only speak English 'ok', not well enough to understand poetry or fast paced pronouncing of slang terms with a ghetto accent.
Funnily enough this opinion comes for a guy who wore baggy jeans, du rag and listened to rap just 4-5 years ago. But I can assure that it didn't have anything to do with music (even though it was 4 life, yo), it was called puberty. Since then my eyes have opened, I've discovered real music, started to play guitar and see all the friends that never got over the rap thing from quite a different angle - musically.
PS. Have you noticed how modern rap artists can totally mess up good melodies with even the most minimum "sampling"? effort?
PPS. I appreciate some of the younger Finnish rap artists as poets though.
I didn't mind Eminem's first couple of albums. Stan was absolute genius, and far better than the actual Dido song it's based on (which wouldn't be hard, but my hate of blanDido is another matter entirely). There's a lot of very clever lyrics in there as well as some decent production on the backing music.
But after that I felt he went the South Park/Bloodhound Gang route and stopped being about making a point or having a laugh and started just trying to be shocking. You can't "try" to be mainstream, it has to happen to you.
There isn't anything wrong with Eminem in my opinion. The old school stuff that has been linked to in the earlier parts of the thread is rubbish imo. I like Eminem, Tupac and a small amount of 50 cents music. Thats it for rap music but I do mainly listen to dance music.
My taste in cars (which isn't actually bad) what the hell has that got to do with music lol.
As for the lyrics, sometimes there is a lot of "dialect" or slang in hiphop music. Read the lyrics on the internet... look the songs up, and you'll find yourself finally understanding them.
For me it was the other way around. When i hit puberty, i was hanging around with hippies and rockers. I have more Rock, Blues and Jazz music than hiphop. Far more.
Until i was about 20 years old, i disliked everything that said rap or hiphop. But that was because i fell for the image that many people have about it. I was seriously thinking that the mainstream hiphop and rap (which was just as bad back then) is what it's about. I had this gangster image in my mind when i've heard hiphop, trying to be cool and tough, all that BS...
When i was around 20 years old, i've heard a track from A Tribe Called Quest in the car of a friend. And i was surprised how good it sounded in my ears. I asked him what artist that is, and then went on a search for myself... i searched through soo much hiphop, you wouldn't believe it. I was very interested in finding more of the good stuff i have heard in the car that day. There it was just about the music first.
Then i started to dig deeper... i somehow felt like "i really like that music i've found here! Let's see what it really is about!". This interest to find out what is really behind it, was because i still couldn't identify myself with the image of hiphop. I was like "ok, i like the music a lot, but is this really who i am?".
In that time i also was in the middle of "growing up" regarding life. How you look at it. What is something you'd see as important in life, etc.
I started to see the bigger picture regarding those things. As i said in my first post in this thread... for me they are things like family, being happy, living your life like you want it, believe in your dreams and follow them... etc. The stuff you can't buy... the stuff that makes you "you" and who you really are.
So when i was digging deeper into hiphop, and eventually found the people who do it with their heart. I found out that hiphop is exactly about this... And not about how you look, how you behave, or what friends you have, what car you drive... none of that is hiphop.
HipHop reflects everything i believe in. HipHop is (and should be) love, positive thinking, having a good laugh, family, a better world, a world that is fun but also responsible for itself... hiphop is to stand up and fight for what and who you are, for what you think is important in life, to fight for others in their lives when you have the chance, fighting for the positive in this world. And you do this with the little things in your every day life. In the way you speak to people, listen to them, in the way you act... all the people together make the world, and every one of us has an influence on what the world becomes. HipHop tries to be a positive influence. It is nothing more than saying out loud all those things. So we don't forget them, have something to hold on to... something to guide us through life with a positive attitude.
I am an atheist, and even while this all may sound like "god is with us" or some stuff like that, it's not. It's a philosophy.
I have always searched for something like this when it comes to what somebody has to say in their music. That's why i like rock, blues and jazz so much. Because they have stories to tell about life aswell. But never have i found something where it is so strong like in hiphop. IMO, hiphop is probably some of the most intelligent music there is.
If it just comes to music and some good lines of text now and then... i love all the other stuff like rock, etc. I play guitar since about 14 years, have played violin and piano when younger, etc. Not that i would be perfect at it, but i do it with passion when i do. Therefor, i see the magic in "real" music (Led Zeppelin, Hendrix, blabla, you know what i'm talking about), no worries.
But in my opinion, none of that music is as strong as good hiphop, when it comes to actually having something to say.
There are many people out there who "are" exactly what hiphop is about, and they don't even know about it or listen to it (and they don't need to). And even if they would be told about all that, and could agree with it... they still wouldn't have to listen to hiphop afterwards. It's not like anybody tries you to tell what you have to like. It mainly has a message for everybody who wants to listen... and it's not your music taste which makes you agree or disagree with a message.
I guess i'm trying to defend hiphop here. Because it is something very deep and a lot more than most people think of it. Without trying to tell you guys that you necessairly have to like the music or start listening to it.
EDIT: Before i forget, i personally aswell think that hiphop is something that is musically impressive and enjoy it a lot. But that's depending on personal taste, like many other things in this world.
I always hated rap back when a few of my mates were into the WuTang Clan and all that shite. But there are a few artists/styles that I do like.
Older Dre and Snoop stuff, Cypress Hill, Guru's Jazzmatazz albums, I listen to pretty often. Occaisionally I'll put House of Pain or Da Luniz on.
Frokki makes a point above about language though.
There are some artists who rap in their own language rather than English who I wuite like as well...MC Solar (French) I have liked since I saw a vid on MTV abck in the late 90s, and Jazzkantine (German) I was introduced to by Void in here on this very forum.
What I really cannot stand is the shouty crap, if it has a groove then I will most likely enjoy it.
Hmm I didn't really read much of this thread, there's a lot being said. So I'll just add my 2 cents.
You could say I'm classically trained (played classic guitar since I was 8 or 9), I've done my grades and theory grades etc. So I know a little bit about the ins and outs of music itself.
I never used to like hip-hop or rap, for that very reason 'oh they've never learnt how to play music, it must be so easy to make a hip-hop track' kinda thing.
However in recent years my music tastes have changed from almost exclusively listening to ska/punk into something a little more varied. I guess I grew out of that 'teenage' image of skater punk or whatever you want to call it.
I'm not such a fan of the old stuff, although I understand it comes from the holden period of rap, in fact what I really enjoy at the moment is British rap, Plan B sticks out as my favorite artist atm.
I think with rap, and I guess hip-hop, their instruments are their mouths, and it takes a lot of skill to produce some of the work they do.
Never close your mind to music, explore as much as you possibly can, then make decisions on what you do and don't like.
It's a lot harder to find good quality music in hiphop than in other styles, that may be true. However, to work with samples can be very hard and there are examples that show you what amazing things can be done with it, if done right. And on top of that, it's not like all of the hiphop you hear is just samples... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQ6wuWy16uA (forgot to mention them anyway :tilt
The problem with peoples opinions of hip hop being bad is from what's in the charts.
Snap and crunk is truly awful, but it's when you delve a bit deeper and start discovering more alternative hip hop, which show amazing production talent, from musicians such as JDilla, Dj Premier (of Gang Starr fame). J Dilla inparticular is often considered the no 1 hip hop producer, sampling jazz
Hip hop often gets a bad reputation for misogyny and violence. Listen to something different from what's in the charts. A Tribe called Quest, De La Soul. Any band/musician part of the native tounge, a collective who's known for their positive lyrics.
Hip hop duo Blackalicious, have produced tracks criticising rappers killing people in rhyme, stating they'd rather cultivate than contribute to genocide.
Another argument against rap and hip hop is that there's no skill in it, becuase they don't play instruments for the most part. The truth is that with newer hip hop (soulja boy and other crunk/snap musicians) who use a beat looper aren't using much skill. The skill is in the sampling, making a good track out of different tracks, bringing many layers to it.
There's alot of skill in writing songs, it's so hard in fact that alot of rap songs are ghost written.
Another argument is that there's no meaning to it. Again this is a problem stemmed from crunk and snap; inane music and rambling to satisfy ringtone customers. Almost all songs by musicians such as Nas, ATCQ, Blackalicious, PE etc. However some hip hop musicians can create a brilliant track with no real meaning to it, Kool Kieth as Dr. Octagon for example from the album Dr. Octagonecologyst, a made up character he's an extraterrestrial, time-traveling surgeon/gynecologist. It's absolutely ridiculous, but it's a brilliant album. You can tell it's ridulous as well by the statement on the sleeve of: "The music on the compact disc was originally recorded on a thermo-nuclear 387-bit, non-linear tracking system dithered down to 20-bit compact disc format. Because of its high resolution, however, limitations can be heard in the compact disc format."
It's produced by Dan the Automator, another brilliant producer, who worked with Prince Paul to create the production duo/group Handsome Boy Modelling School who produce songs and have other people sing on them.
J Dilla was something that sounded "different" when i've heard it the first time. It's something that happens with good music tho... the kind of music you have to listen to a few times before you start to really like it. I forgot to mention him, but what he did was truly impressive. Some of the best sampling i've ever heard i think.
Good point.
Large Professor AKA Extra P comes to mind, didn't he make beats for people like Common, Pete Rock, etc?
Another example for the "no meaning to it" thing (which can indeed create brilliant tracks) is MC Paul Barman. Funny enough, one of his tracks is about a time traveling cockroach who is a poet.
Dismissive and way too simplistic, but no worries, since you and your brethren have chosen to miss out on some great stuff. No one else's problem but your own. I don't have time to point out the whys and wherefores, but if you consider that rap has its roots in poetry (another extremely wide category), you might also be able to figure out why I just don't have time to point out where you are going wrong.
Awww, feeling a bit generous.... Maybe its the time of year, but I'll help you narrow the field down a little bit... Start with the Last Poets and work your way out from there...
To add a bit of balance to my post, I reckon there's probably a decent cultural studies essay to be written on how Hip Hop (and Rap) has been appropriated and developed into an agent of American cultural imperialism. The pervasiveness of the genres has definitely become a double-edged sword.
