Just a quick question for those fast drivers out there. I've noticed that many (most? All?) of the really ast setups have a brake bias set quite a bit more forward than I'd expect. Seems like I've read somewhere that people are doing this because they're using the engine to slow themselves down.

Why? I've read from Carroll Smith that you want to set the car up for maximum braking with just the brakes (I'm sure Carroll has some pithy comment about brakes are for stopping and engines are for going; but I digress).

So can someone explain why engine braking is so popular?

Im not that fast but I'll try to answer anyway. Both are used at the same time offcourse, the brakes, and the engine to help a litle its used in real life too I think but you really cant brake only using that. And in LFS in its current state its better to brake early (thats why low brake power and front bias) on the straight and have max speed in corner, its very hard to brake late allmost in the corner itself, and front brake bias is more safe. Engine braking is effective way to help you slow down, and the damage isnt that good yet and it doesnt affect in short races. Using engine braking and having front brake bias just doesnt have anything to do with eachother, or atleast I cant see any connection.

er.. i try to never engine brake, because it spins the rear wheels and then you screw yourself (ei: test it out with the FOX)

i dont see many 'high' brake biases.. most around low 60's to mide 70's

FOX without engine braking?

I know a whole bunch of corners i slow down for / thru by exclusively engine braking.

Quote from XCNuse :

er.. i try to never engine brake, because it spins the rear wheels and then you screw yourself (ei: test it out with the FOX)

i dont see many 'high' brake biases.. most around low 60's to mide 70's

Well, most setups i've seen are using mid 66 to 69 (fox). Not so sure about low brake power, i normaly use 590nm to 630 max, but lot of other players use 650 and above. If i use the same i lockup. Must be my driving style

Quote :

i try to never engine brake, because it spins the rear wheels and then you screw yourself (ei: test it out with the FOX)

No. Engine braking does not spin the wheels. Downshifting at the wrong revs locks the wheels for a very short moment which might get your rear lose.

Most hotlap sets have low braking force, due the lines WR guys use. I allways use much higher force in races. Mostly because if you really have to stop quicker because something happening front of you, you can. You feel safer

edit. And yes, if you lock your wheel you have shifted down too early, its more easier to lock with cars with high revs I think...atleast for me it is :P

Much like Blackout, I like to keep some braking power in reserve. If I miss a marker, or something happens in front that I wasn't ready for, I can downshift fast, not blip the engine too much, and just ride the throttle a touch to keep it straight.

Also, if you're not going to be able to pull it up, you can steer it quite a bit by locking the rears a little with a downshift. I think it's something that probably comes naturally with a bit of time at the wheel, learning to chuck it around a bit.

Quote from Goop :

Also, if you're not going to be able to pull it up, you can steer it quite a bit by locking the rears a little with a downshift.

I do that quite often. Either using the gearbox or a bit of additional braking at corner entry. 15% of the time this leads to a nice drift (which looks strange in the FOX...) but it sure is fun.

Vain

Depends what car you are in, there are cars that benifits from engine braking, XFR/UFR, and those that don't FXO springs to mind.

Dan,

I sometimes use some extra engine braking on the last shift just before the corner to loosen the car a bit on turn in and get it rotating nicely.

Can go wrong though if you shift a bit early

it's simple, why use one method of slowing the car down when you could use 2? you stop faster.

I agree 2 braking methods are better than 1 and i find that fine in the FWD cars. It can mean the front lock but a bit of a press on the accel n a little lift on brake usually sort it out. I can engine brake a bit in the rwd street cars. But the SS and GTR cars i dont engine brake as i found i locked the rears and spin.
As to answer the question in post #1 - its popular as you can brake later and still make the corners.

Quote from nikimere :

it's simple, why use one method of slowing the car down when you could use 2? you stop faster.

Well, only if one method isnt powerful enough to lock the wheels. Which is rarely the case in LFS cars seeing as we can adjust the brake pressure up to the max.

imho trailbraking is easier with the brake bias more to the front. the rear is way more stable.

if i have to brake hard after a fast straight, i can use the engine to slow down quicker.

in the end its all down to personal preference

it gives you options, especially in a rwd car, to alter line whilst entering a corner. personally i find i can use a setup which is more prone to uindersteer, then i can balance it on entry with engine braking and with the throttle on the exit, both of which allow me to alter line quite a bit if theres a car in way without loosing control

It's especially useful on cars with downforce, as you can use engine braking to provide more braking effort at high speed when there is more grip, and use less brake strength to help reduce lockups at low speed.

well I use engine braking as a way to modulate the braking distance, you almost can't hit the brake point exactly the same on every lap, so when i miss the brake point slightly, i downshift quickly, whereas with going early on the brakes, i downshift more relaxed...

There are two schools of thought about engine braking,

a, set the brake bias (driven wheels low) so that you can use massive amounts of engine braking to assist the wheel brakes.

b, set the brake to work at maximum capacity and use heel & toe (or auto blip) to save loading up the tyres even more when downchanging

I mainly use B with a little spare grip incase i make a proper mess of the downchange.

It's a lot easier to rely on engine braking to slow you down but it means that you have much less control over whats going on at the wheels. and as fetzo says, trailbraking is a little more controlled with more front bias.


Although it makes a huge difference weather the car is RWD, FWD or AWD

with AWD+FWD you can get away with a lot more engine braking than you would in a RWD car, my suggestion is to turn auto blip on (or learn to heel & toe) if you want maximum possible braking effort since the braking force the engine generates varies a lot with revs/gears etc and wheel braking it totally consistant, allowing you to use a hard, consistant braking effort

I'm definitely in camp B. I just can't get used to a car with too much forward bias. I pretty much always have to dial it back to around 62% or I'll go understeering off at the first corner. I just find it gives me that initial bite to get the car rotated.

BTW: I found my reference to Carroll Smith. It's in Driving to Win on page 2 - 25. He's got a section in there about rowing through the gears vs skipping (kinda tangental), but he does say that we should "Concentrate your efforts on braking efficiently and, when the car has slowed sufficiently, downshift into the required gear (taking care to properly synch the revs) - and get on with the job." I remember, but can't locate off hand, that he also describes a little experiment where you take the car and do some 60 mph to 0 stops; both with and without downshifting. His claim is that by concentrating on modulating the brakes, you'll stop in less distance if you don't row the gears.

In the FXR i just throw the gears down madly So yes, i do use A LOT of engine braking. But hey, it's AWD so it's almost as stable as a rock.

Quote from martine_wedlake :

His claim is that by concentrating on modulating the brakes, you'll stop in less distance if you don't row the gears.

to me that doesn't make sense. why not concentrate on braking like he says but also use the added stopping method of engine braking?
no racing driver in their right mind would just brake into a corner and then select the right gear before the apex or before you go on the power.

In LFS you only have to press a button each time the revs sound right, with some adaptation to the tire's grip, which you can also tell by ear.
Engine braking in addition to regular braking uses even less brain overhead when you're in a familiar car/track situation.

The way I enter a corner with for example the XFG is by braking hard at first and shifting to the required gear as fast as possible without locking the fronts while blipping hard, and then in the final gear for the corner I trail brake a little into it and accelerate immediately when I know I won't understeer off the track.

When setting up brake bias I usually aim to have it so that I can trail brake into the tightest corner of that track and the power as high as possible without constantly locking or the rear stepping out too much.

I use engine braking to slow the car down a little more than by only using brakes, and to prevent wheel locking.

Quote from nikimere :

to me that doesn't make sense. why not concentrate on braking like he says but also use the added stopping method of engine braking?

Because one method screws up your brake-balance and brakes inconsistantly and the other can brake very fluently with a well defined brake-balance.

Vain