Quote from Dennis93 :

i dont get it, why is he using clutch in an ignition cut gearbox. and hes 'heel & Toe' is very very odd.. using 75-100% while on clutch? then releases both. even in a dockring gearbox, i never uses clutch. :o

What I find odd is that he clutches for some gears and not for others. I'm sure there's a very good reason for that, which someone will kindly explain to me here

This is also the first time that I see the driver "jabbing" the brake before each turn to see if he still has brakes. I never knew drivers did that, I was very surprised to read about it a couple of days ago in some thread here where Tristan pointed that out.

Well if you took the time to read my long arse post obsolum I think I explained it (very simply though). Infact I explained both things in there

@Dennis: The heel&toe he does is fairly normal, it's similar to what I do. I guess since he was shifting from a few gears away, it needed a big blip to go into gear. Obviously it helps avoiding compression lock ups - the more blip you give it. Either that or I suppose Aussies are just 'tarded and can't do it properly

I think it doesn't matter whether you use very strong brakes or soft or anywhere in between, it still comes down to traction sensing and skill. I remember Loeb making a note on the WRC car used in RoC, he said the brakes were a bit too strong for his taste, he still managed all right, but surely was not completely comfortable. It's like in rental kart the brake force and bite point in each kart varies hugely yet the fastest stay fastest, they just adopt.

Quote from NotAnIllusion :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdWSyrqEnE4

What is he doing at 0:51?? I can't even call that braking.

Does nobody read the thread?

Quote from Töki (HUN) :

What is he doing at 0:51?? I can't even call that braking.

Quote from obsolum :

This is also the first time that I see the driver "jabbing" the brake before each turn to see if he still has brakes.

Quote from [DUcK] :

Well if you took the time to read my long arse post obsolum I think I explained it (very simply though). Infact I explained both things in there

Yeah sorry, I haven't been following this thread

Hehe, no probs.. I do it all the time

Quote from [DUcK] :

Does nobody read the thread?

Oops, well, long posts, you know...

Quote from Dennis93 :

i dont get it, why is he using clutch in an ignition cut gearbox. and hes 'heel & Toe' is very very odd.. using 75-100% while on clutch? then releases both. even in a dockring gearbox, i never uses clutch. :o

The reason he uses a clutch on an ignition cut gearbox is easy to determine. His right foot is in control of OVER 600bhp.

Most V8 drivers tend to ignore the clutch in the higher gears but use the clutch in the lower gears to help keep the car in balance and stop the car swapping ends.

The driver in this vid is one of the best in the V8 series. Every driver uses different techniques. Guess this is what he has found best for him after MANY years driving these monsters.

Quote from gezmoor :

In real life even relatively crap brakes give you some feedback through the pedal. In sims feedback is non existant.

Almost relatively crap brakes. I've yet to drive a GM vehicle that gave any feedback through the pedal. The pedal just squishes and squishes and gives absolutely no feedback whatsoever. I nearly crashed a GM on a test drive because I hadn't driven a GM in 15 years and had to brake. I had no idea how much braking I was doing because of the complete lack of feedback.

I've never driven a Vette. I'm talking normal cars of which I've driven many GM normal cars.

What feedback are you speaking of? I've never felt any feedback apart from normal resistance...

Quote from bbman :

What feedback are you speaking of? I've never felt any feedback apart from normal resistance...

Same And the ABS system engaging, of course.

Quote from bbman :

What feedback are you speaking of? I've never felt any feedback apart from normal resistance...

Quote from obsolum :

Same And the ABS system engaging, of course.

I think he is referring to the pressure feedback. Most brakes come to a point where they don't move anymore and it becomes a pressure application. The harder you press, the more braking you get (but with very little to no pedal movement). On sim pedals, when it gets hard to press anymore, you are out of brakes. It is all based on travel.

Some help can be derived from using the tennis ball trick or by getting some quality pedals. But they all still have the same basic problem. It is all based off of movement.

Another problem with sim brakes, especially while using something like the tennis ball, is the brake pedal wants to spring back with quite a bit of force. Real brake pedals don't do that. The obviously spring back to full up, but not with that much force. Having this force pushing back against your foot makes it much hard to heal toe smoothly. It keeps pushing against your foot and when you roll your foot to hit the gas, the brakes let up some. This leads to jerky braking and tire lockups, etc.

Quote from Mattesa :

You will lock up all four tires well before the point where the brake pedal stops moving. Go ahead and try it in your real car parked but with the engine on. Push the pedal all the way until it stops moving. That's a lot of force, and more than enough to already lock the wheels if the car was moving.

If you look at the vid above, you can see that no where does that racer run out of pedal movement.

I think sim pedals using movement is fine. It just needs to be a lot stiffer, and perhaps with the braking force not linearly proportional to pedal movement.

Not entirely correct. The brakes ability to lock up the wheels is dependant on how fast the car is moving. On parking lot speeds, yes, almost any crappy brakes will be able to lock it up. But at higher speeds they might not. That's why you need mega brakes on cars with powerful engines to slow them down fast enough, because they get up to higher speeds faster.

Summary: The faster the car is moving, the more brake force is needed to reach the point where they can lock up the wheels. Most cars unable to do so at higher speeds, so bigger stronger brakes almost always result in faster braking. Only exception is if only braking from already low speeds, where weaker brakes are enough to lock up the tires.

Example: I always use max brake force in LFS. In the XFG and those cars at the blackwood straight, I can easily apply (smoothly) maximum brake force for a few seconds, and the tires will not lock up. As speed goes down, eventually I must slowly come off the brake pedal or the brakes will lock up the tires. If I didn't have max brake force, the braking would be even shittier.

The downside is that the brakes require a more delicate touch when slowing down at the end of the braking stretch. But that's racing for you.

Quote from bbman :

What feedback are you speaking of? I've never felt any feedback apart from normal resistance...

I can testify some Opel/GM cars have a sort of spongy feeling to the brake pedal, though it affected mostly older models (15+ yo), newer ones are better.

I can't honestly say this ever made any difference to braking though

Quote from dadge :

AMEN to that. i don't think you're alone using that technique gunn. i do the same (except heel/toe) thing. i engine brake alot too. brake bal is usually around the F60/R40 mark. but usually when i notice i'm locking up i try to brake earlier and if that doesn't work, i reduce the brake power.

Will all of you just stop spreading miss-conceptions about engine braking? Please. It should be avoided at all cost, especially in racing. I will not start an argument again, there was a thread about this before, tristan & me gave several good explanations - obviously you could just ignore it, but at least keep your bad driving habits to yourself.

Quote from scipy :

Will all of you just stop spreading miss-conceptions about engine braking? Please. It should be avoided at all cost, especially in racing. I will not start an argument again, there was a thread about this before, tristan & me gave several good explanations - obviously you could just ignore it, but at least keep your bad driving habits to yourself.

I'm sure everybody here will search you and Tristan's posts if nessascary, but please, if these drivers are doing this, it wont be the cause everybody else doing it, we arent all sheep on this forum, well as far as i know anyway.

Quote from scipy :

Will all of you just stop spreading miss-conceptions about engine braking? Please. It should be avoided at all cost, especially in racing. I will not start an argument again, there was a thread about this before, tristan & me gave several good explanations - obviously you could just ignore it, but at least keep your bad driving habits to yourself.

Could you please post a link to that topic ?
Seems interesting.

what's wrong with engine braking, as long as you don't overrev the engine?

Quote from bunder9999 :

what's wrong with engine braking, as long as you don't overrev the engine?

From what I remember from that thread scipy mentioned, engine braking doesn't really help slow the car down if you're already using the brakes to their full extent (ie. the tyres are at their grip limit). So it's pointless. That's it in a nutshell.

Quote from obsolum :

From what I remember from that thread scipy mentioned, engine braking doesn't really help slow the car down if you're already using the brakes to their full extent (ie. the tyres are at their grip limit). So it's pointless. That's it in a nutshell.

Yep, very logical indeed.

Anyway, I'm still using engine braking cause I "just happen" to be driving setups with brakes sets for engine braking

if 4 wheels are at the grip limit and you lift the clutch engine brake will skid the back wheels cause you were at the limit

and you are not gonna take the whole brake zone with the clutch depressed

so actually if you want to use the maximum braking grip you must engine brake so 4 wheels will be at the limit of grip

otherwise your back wheels will be undergrip or overgrip(skidding) depending on how much the engine is braking

is not that im able to do that but seems most logical to me and when i used bikes in an emergency engine brake helped

Quote from lerts :

[...] and you are not gonna take the whole brake zone with the clutch depressed [...]

To my mind, not using engine braking would more be like not downshifting during the whole braking, and then downshift quickly just before you're gonna accelerate again.

But I'm not doing that... and when I do, it's usually because I screwed up my braking

Quote from lerts :

if 4 wheels are at the grip limit and you lift the clutch engine brake will skid the back wheels cause you were at the limit

and you are not gonna take the whole brake zone with the clutch depressed

so actually if you want to use the maximum braking grip you must engine brake so 4 wheels will be at the limit of grip

otherwise your back wheels will be undergrip or overgrip(skidding) depending on how much the engine is braking

is not that im able to do that but seems most logical to me and when i used bikes in an emergency engine brake helped

Wrong... If you aren't using engine braking, you either brake with the clutch pedal pressed or you're in neutral... This means there is no engine braking happening, but it also means your braking force and bias has to be adjusted accordingly...

This is the first time I hear you should generally avoid engine braking... Downshifting too early - yes; downshifting without blipping I can also understand; but avoiding it altogether? That's news to me, as I've seen quite some videos of real racers who use it - quite aggressively at that...

I have not read the entire post yet, but for me, the setup of the brakes should be, that spot, where when touched, the car levels itself to the wind and exit, or, why you touched the brakes! in the first place!
So far, for me, I am still working on the tracks..
I don't give up, I think, therefore I exit the corner after thisone.