Ikaponthus, i suggest playing GT5p with a wheel before passing that kind of judgment. Its nothing like the past GT games
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=id5SiFBQx88
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=id5SiFBQx88
What's that got to do with GT5 being an acceptable simulator? It doesn't even have flashing lighs and stuff... I find your comment rather quite insulting.
What are you getting upset about anyway? Are they wrong for criticizing GT5 letting a F1 car get air like that?
BTW, can the F1 in LFS jump with reasonable downforce settings? Wouldn't want to be a hypocrite.
First of all, you're misunderstanding wildly.
Secondly, I think if any air did get under an F1 car it probably would fly (haven't watched the youtube video btw). It's wings would act like aeroplane wings. Have you ever seen those Le Mans cars flip when they get a bit of air under them?
Thirdly, don't know about the F1 in LFS. There's no tracks where you can make it get any real kind of "air". I do know that if you drive the wrong way around the Kyoto ring and crash, the physics act very unrealisticly (cars flipping about in the air etc.). Much less realisticly than in if you do the same thing in rFactor or NASCAR Racing 2003 (where the crashes/rolling physics look more-or-less real). Dunno what that says about anything, but meh...
Secondly, I think if any air did get under an F1 car it probably would fly (haven't watched the youtube video btw). It's wings would act like aeroplane wings. Have you ever seen those Le Mans cars flip when they get a bit of air under them?
Thirdly, don't know about the F1 in LFS. There's no tracks where you can make it get any real kind of "air". I do know that if you drive the wrong way around the Kyoto ring and crash, the physics act very unrealisticly (cars flipping about in the air etc.). Much less realisticly than in if you do the same thing in rFactor or NASCAR Racing 2003 (where the crashes/rolling physics look more-or-less real). Dunno what that says about anything, but meh...
i've tried lauching cars around in gt4 before... i think they also have a binding box above the cars... and/or some sort of mechanism that prevents the car from going upside down. 
nfs isn't the greatest for physics either... driving 200mph into a wall and being able to continue... ugh.
nfs isn't the greatest for physics either... driving 200mph into a wall and being able to continue... ugh.
Yes.. but it makes a hard landing, which damages the suspensions. In that GT5P video, it landed as nothing has happened. Its got a friggin soft suspension as well... reminds me of a dirt BUGGY O_O
Cars still can't go upside down in GT5P, which to me is a major dissapointment. In my opinion, its a huge handicap because cars with a high CoG should tip and roll over like the XF when turning at extremely high speed. I think it will be great for its rally stages... because it will force players to be more careful on the jumps (like in RBR)... but oh well I guess GT isn't going to be a full fledged driving sim.
You have to watch it. Let me make it clear... the car DIDN'T fly. As I said, it jumped and landed softly like a buggy... It just seemed so wrong. Its an F1, for christ's sake... not an offroad vehicle.
(Nitrous13270)
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by Nitrous13270
i'd hate for that to be my butt-bone in that seat... :ices_rofl
Yeah GT5p isnt a proper sim (yet (maybe) ), and i doubt GT5 will be a real simulator
what can i say about comparising those sims. when i want to do a race i use LFS. i mostly use rFactor for hotlapping (mainly F1 mods or Niels's corvette). While racing it just doesent seem right. there is more twats than in LFS, so most first corners are nothing but "i will crash you". So anyway LFS for racing and rFactor for Hotlapping
It's quite the opposite.
The wings on planes are supposed to create a high pressure zone on the underside. The pressure difference results in a upwards force.
Cars OTOH like to stick to the ground, so the wing creates a high pressure zone on the upperside, that's why it's called downforce.
The spectacular accidents you're talking about are the consequence of the ground effect which creates hideous amounts of downforce as long as there's a certain clearance below the car and not more.
If the car is lifted beyond a certain limit, the ground effect immediately disappears and the car sorts of bounce up.
That said the videos of GT5P which have been posted, look really unrealistic: as usual cars appear to have no weight.
Thanks for that explanation.
I was only thinking of the Le-Mans cars that really do fly like a peice of paper once they get air under them, but you explained that well. BTW, I like your signature.
As far as comparing GT5P goes, I was first and foremost saying that it will not be a simulator, no matter what the makers claim (I am aware they have always called GT a "driving simulator"). I haven't even played GT5, but when you're mass-producing a product that "simulates" 500 cars (or whatever), and it's aimed at the console market, most of which is kids who can't even properly handle their parent's station wagon yet, let alone a pure-bred racing machine... and would be controlling that racing machine with a playstation gamepad ... and winning races! In this case, simple logic suggests they're hardly going to be making a high-fidelity simulator. It would be a huge flop. They might market it as "realistic", but that doesn't make it so.
"Hardcore" driving simulators are, and always will be, a niche market. I think even half the people who play LFS completely miss the point (you probably fit into that category if you think it's a high priority for the devs to release a "sIcKA$$ dRiFt cAr").
I was only thinking of the Le-Mans cars that really do fly like a peice of paper once they get air under them, but you explained that well. BTW, I like your signature.
As far as comparing GT5P goes, I was first and foremost saying that it will not be a simulator, no matter what the makers claim (I am aware they have always called GT a "driving simulator"). I haven't even played GT5, but when you're mass-producing a product that "simulates" 500 cars (or whatever), and it's aimed at the console market, most of which is kids who can't even properly handle their parent's station wagon yet, let alone a pure-bred racing machine... and would be controlling that racing machine with a playstation gamepad ... and winning races! In this case, simple logic suggests they're hardly going to be making a high-fidelity simulator. It would be a huge flop. They might market it as "realistic", but that doesn't make it so.
"Hardcore" driving simulators are, and always will be, a niche market. I think even half the people who play LFS completely miss the point (you probably fit into that category if you think it's a high priority for the devs to release a "sIcKA$$ dRiFt cAr").
No offense, Ikaponthus, your presumptions are without any reason other than your own reasonings, and especially to generalize a game you haven't even at least played?! I don't see any validity in anything regarding this issue.
No. GT5 is not the best simulator ever. No, it doesn't have great FFB for the majority of gamepad users. (But on that basis, LFS isn't a sim to anyone who uses a 90degree wheel, gamepad, keyboard or mouse..am I correct?)
However, GT5 does simulate vehicle dynamics on a more than acceptable level, and much better, in my eyes, than rFactor or any other of the Simbin/ISI developed games (GTR, GT Legends, GTR2, Evo and Race07) games. Played GT4? GT5P is nothing like it. Try and recall GT3, many many years ago and that's more like it. It's infinity better than the GT4 it replaces.
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25.22% of the LFS population are aged between 15 and 19, and 26.60 are aged 20 to 24.
Honestly, I believe this represents a comparable age range of most people who play racing simulators, such as LFS, NKP, GT5P, rFactor and iRacing.
'Racing games' such as NFS and Burnout series will inevitably fall under different sub-genres within the 'racing' title, as a whole, and as such are likely to be played by those who are aged 15 and under, however I'm sure you'll find games, especially those such as Burnout to be enjoyed by the same people that also enjoy LFS and the like.
As I said, it's a different style of game. One is a game-game. Purely to have fun, to enjoy yourself. One is a simulation game, where the object of the 'game' isn't to necessarily have fun, but to simulate vehicle handling, dynamics, and all other factors involved within racing. But I digress.
The average age of an LFS user is, according to LFS world, 24-26 something (can't remember now I've closed the webpage).
I think that you are rather stereotypical, especially with your last statement
Maybe it's you that miss the point.
No. GT5 is not the best simulator ever. No, it doesn't have great FFB for the majority of gamepad users. (But on that basis, LFS isn't a sim to anyone who uses a 90degree wheel, gamepad, keyboard or mouse..am I correct?)
However, GT5 does simulate vehicle dynamics on a more than acceptable level, and much better, in my eyes, than rFactor or any other of the Simbin/ISI developed games (GTR, GT Legends, GTR2, Evo and Race07) games. Played GT4? GT5P is nothing like it. Try and recall GT3, many many years ago and that's more like it. It's infinity better than the GT4 it replaces.
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25.22% of the LFS population are aged between 15 and 19, and 26.60 are aged 20 to 24.
Honestly, I believe this represents a comparable age range of most people who play racing simulators, such as LFS, NKP, GT5P, rFactor and iRacing.
'Racing games' such as NFS and Burnout series will inevitably fall under different sub-genres within the 'racing' title, as a whole, and as such are likely to be played by those who are aged 15 and under, however I'm sure you'll find games, especially those such as Burnout to be enjoyed by the same people that also enjoy LFS and the like.
As I said, it's a different style of game. One is a game-game. Purely to have fun, to enjoy yourself. One is a simulation game, where the object of the 'game' isn't to necessarily have fun, but to simulate vehicle handling, dynamics, and all other factors involved within racing. But I digress.
The average age of an LFS user is, according to LFS world, 24-26 something (can't remember now I've closed the webpage).
I think that you are rather stereotypical, especially with your last statement
Maybe it's you that miss the point.
What is "the point"?
I play (yes, I said play, LFS is a game to me) LFS for 4 years and used chase view all the time. I even used keyboard in the whole first year. Yet I still had a lot of fun with LFS in those 4 years and will continue to do so.
I don't think that I missed "the point" of LFS.
That's your opinion.
My opinion is that "the point" of LFS is an attempt at an authentic racing simulator; thus if you're using the keyboard and chase view - regardless of whether you were having fun or not - you missed "the point".
S14 DRIFT,
Not sure what you're getting at there. You seem to have a bee under your bonet but are neither agreeing nor disagreeing with anything I've said. Thanks for the random facts though.
P.S. No offence taken.
Not sure what you're getting at there. You seem to have a bee under your bonet but are neither agreeing nor disagreeing with anything I've said. Thanks for the random facts though.
P.S. No offence taken.
I have a clue. I have had rFactor for quite a long time and I purchased GT5p the day it was released. GT5p actually feels better to me. The driving feels quite a lot like LFS actually. I think rFactor is more arcade than GT5p. The full release of GT5 will, i expect, improve a lot on prologue also. You should't just base your opinion on all the other Gran Turismo games and write off GT5, that's like basing rFactor on just one crappy mod, which is what you are telling us all not to do. You quite clearly have a biased opinion about it anyway. Previous Gran Turismo games were not ground-breakingly realistic, but they were far from "PURE arcade", and were nothing like Need For Speed. Car's still behaved reasonably realisticly. Some mods for rfactor, ones done by Niels, are very good. Most of them however, are terrible and just feel unnatural when driving. I feel no connection to the car in most, unlike the feeling I get in LFS, Nkpro and, dare I say it, GT5p.
Sto un bastardo fastidioso. Non fa niente. Per divertimento.
Tu non parla troppo complicato, per favore. Sto imparando e parlare Italiano ma molto lentamente.
Horrible, I know. But I'm trying.
Well I haven't "played" GT5, and I don't plan on it either (not planning on buying an xBox or playstation or whatever). I admit, I could be wrong, but for reasons I've already outlined, I just can't believe it could be a bona-fide "racing sim" :-
All you have to do is consider what we're talking about to come to a logical conclusion. GT5 is a mass-produced product that "simulates" 500 cars (or whatever), and it's aimed at the console market. Most of the target audience are kids who can't even properly handle the clutch on their parent's station wagon yet, let alone a pure-bred racing machine... and they would be controlling that racing machine with a playstation gamepad ... and winning races! In this case, simple logic suggests they're hardly going to be making a high-fidelity simulator. Getting a racing car around the first corner at half-racing speed would be a commendable acheivment for a 14 year old with a gamepad. They might market the game as "realistic", but that doesn't make it so." (from an above post, slightly edited)
I realize that harder does not mean "more realistic", however, you have concede to logic. And if the same is true for LFS or rFactor, then they're not very good sims either. I was amazed to hear that some people apparantly drive with the mouse and keyboard. "How effectively?" is the question though.... I guess there's a reason that there's so many "cruise" drivers around...
Is there anyone here who effectively races with anything but a high-quality steering-wheel and pedal setup? Speak now, what are you best lap times?
In the case of GT5, I'm sure it's forgiving enough to succeed racing the game with a gamepad, and that alone suggests it is no simulator ... unless you're Playstation's answer to Michael Schumacher with magical playstation thumbs.
Put it this way, if the average playstation-fan can drive a racing car competitively with a gamepad, they would install gamepads in the real cars. Either that or GT5 is no "simulator". I wonder...
Some friends of mine are GT5 players to the bone. Really experienced.
I sat them down in my little sim with live for speed. Really, not 1 decent lap. The best proof imho.
Otherway around, you are amazed how faultless you drive GT5 when used to lfs ... really it is feeling booring, too much grip
(always with wheel...!)
I sat them down in my little sim with live for speed. Really, not 1 decent lap. The best proof imho.
Otherway around, you are amazed how faultless you drive GT5 when used to lfs ... really it is feeling booring, too much grip
(always with wheel...!)
That says a lot. I'm not surprised at all. As someone else pointed out earlier, a lot of the "playstation gang" seem to equate "realism" with having great graphics or a large selection of real-life vehciles and tracks. That might be cool, but what I'm talking about is simulating the physics of racing cars.
yes that very true
By your logic, in LFS people could be controlling racing machines with a mouse and winning races!!! So LFS is not a sim.
In fact most PC sims can be played with a gamepad successfully, if you turn on some driving aids and tune the speed sensitivity, linearity, damping and all sorts of input filters. That GT is accessible with pads simply means they've tuned excellent driving aids and input filters for the exact pad gamers use. Forza 2 does it, too. You can see from its telemetry that the pad input is heavily filtered and never the same as that fed into the physics engine.
This, by itself, doesn't make the underlying sim any less sim. You need only plug in a nice G25 (kills filtering) and turn off all the aids to find a very "sim" game in GT.
i wonder why it´s still not closed btw.... maybe i would play it if a lfs gtr car would be in there.... but it´s still: play what you wan´t! i don´t wanna see guys online complaining all the time against lfs 
btw.... maybe i would play it if a lfs gtr car would be in there.... but it´s still: play what you wan´t! i don´t wanna see guys online complaining all the time against lfs When I hurt my arm awhile ago I had to use a mouse for steering (still pedals for throttle/brake though) to be able to play LFS. It took some getting used to, but eventually I was just as fast as I was with a wheel, and I actually got my best ever result in an OWRL race while using a mouse.
It was definitely harder correcting big mistakes though (no FFB, plus a mouse doesn't have an obvious center/straight position), and I think it would be very hard driving on the absolute limit because of that. I'm not good enough to drive on the limit even with a wheel though, so it didn't make as much difference.
I generally agree with your post though
To be honest, I doubt you have tried driving a real car with a gamepad or with a mouse and keyboard. For all you know it could be easy. It's not as if driving on GT5 or driving with mouse on LFS is a piece of cake. You say a lot about GT5 being a mass-marketing product so it will probably not be very realistic, after admitting yourself of not even trying it. Of course there is not much point in trying it yourself because you seem very single-minded about what is good and what is bad. RFactor is not a mass-marketing product like GT5, and it still fails to be realistic. That's a lot worse to be honest. You also said that all the playstation guys seem to think that; graphics! = realism. No, I don't think this. If you read my previous post, I also play LFS and NKpro and they are not at the same level of graphics as GT5, but still are better physics wise, and that is why I play them more and play them more seriously. To be fair, I could just say that rFactor racers think rF it is more realistic because it has real cars and tracks. What good are real cars that behave nothing like their real-life counterpart? I would rather drive an XRT, a make-believe car, that would handle exactly the same if a real version of it were made.
To the person who thinks GT5 has too much grip, turn all aids off and turn the physics from, "standard", to, "simulation", then if you still think that it has far too much grip, you must be on crack.
To the person who thinks GT5 has too much grip, turn all aids off and turn the physics from, "standard", to, "simulation", then if you still think that it has far too much grip, you must be on crack.
Rfactor vs LFS ... pretty impressive
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