If you can say that you fail to underdtand the difference between a slush box and LFS gear help, they have NOTHING in common at all
Think of the LFS gear help as a "robot" that operates the clutch and gearbox for you. Do you see the difference now, not a nasty slush box in sight
The day the LFS devs implement a slush box is the day they lose sight of the product they are actually producing. Knowing about Scawens stance on driver aids it will not happen, cut and blip help used to exist but were removed to force people to drive correctly.
I would like to have a <proper> automatic transmission.
An auto that changes smoothly, that when you're still and in D tries to move, and of course that uses some power of the engine (making it a little bit slower).
I don't quite like racing with the auto transmission on... but I think (as it is now) it's an advantage for whom uses it.
Tried to do in LFS a 0-100km/h (0-62mph) test with manual (clutch operated by pedal), sequential (auto clutch) and automatic transmission.
Manual, at my best, was 0,82 seconds slower than auto; with the auto clutch on, 0,5 seconds slower than the auto.
IRL it isn't like this: the auto is (usually) the slowest, because of the loss of power.
IMHO if the devs want to put in LFS a REAL auto, they could also raise the fuel consumption and the weight...
Sequential might have an edge over manual, but the auto feels slower to me. I made an informal, one-off test with the XFG on the drag strip and I was around 0.15-.20 s faster with manual.
Think you're right. :Kick_Can_
Just tried with the RB4, AutoX Drag Strip.
Manual Shift & Clutch: 0:13,53 was the best I could do in 3 runs (0:13,77 & 0:13,67 the others);
Manual Shift, Auto Clutch: 0:13,55 the best, 0:13,72 & 0:13,58 the others;
Auto Shift & Clutch: 0:13,75 the best, 0:13,79 & 0:13,78 the others.
0-100 (0-60) respectively in 5,35 (M/M), 5,35 (M/A) and 5,56 (A/A).
Let's say it. My fault. Got owned
But I think that there is a (maybe too much) tiny difference between an auto and a manual. IRL *I think* there's more.
Actually I did take my own timings from the moment I dumped the clutch, but I guess if you're really consistent on your take-offs, that wouldn't be a problem.
You can't really draw comparisons between LFS in Auto-mode and RL simply because a lot more work is required to operate a manual through servos than in LFS, and there are several ways to tackle the problem.
IMO we should focus more on the difference between gated shifters in seq mode, since it is the most widely used setting. In seq mode there's the benefit of never having to face a misshift, so it would make sense to slow it down a little.
However, I have little hope of this being fixed, as the button clutch cheat would need to be sorted out first.
"DSG" is literally written out as "Direktschaltgetriebe" which is neither an old-school automatic nor comparable to LFS's "automated-gears" option.
It uses two clutches combined in the gearbox, on fitted to 1st,3rd,5th,(optional 7th) (and reverse?) plus one for the 2nd,4th,6th. So when changing gears, the next to come is already alligned inside the box before the actual - direct - change even occurs. That's why it is so fast.
The downside is that most of these systems built into standard road-cars are not suitable for stunt-driving manoeuvres since they lack an override-third-pedal that e.g. WRC-cars have with their customized, partly-automated sequential gearboxes.
So yes, in a way you drive those double-clutch systems similarily to an auto - if they are tuned to perform as such. And no: in certain situations a full manual will still perform better.
lol do u watch GT3 i think its called with porsche's and commies and the rest?? if so you may have seen NZVL the VL commie that runs a jacot 4spd auto.
i have spoke with him many times and the main two reasons he use's auto is that a manual box has to short ratio's and a sequential box wont withstand 740+KW's for the $25,000 virson
reg. automated clutch and such excuse me for this slightly off-topic response, please
That's right from the "I want more realism and am using an h-shifter with the 3rd-pedal-view". And it's the exact same reason I use auto-clutch and the flappy-pedals most of the time, when I am in a race. Most (if not all) of the tracks in lfs are built for speed. Handling in sharp bends under treacherous road-conditions is mostly not designed into the simulation's grounds as of yet. And that's the only time I am experiencing the advantage of being able to shift gears directly (e.g. from 6th to 2nd or sth.). Playing with the car's weight and handling is where a proper manual really shines. On other occasions it is doomed to slow your reaction time down and to bring a disatvantage to the car's handling (especially at high speeds) since automated clutch is king (looking at the fact you can keep both hands on the steering wheel).
Drifting also profites from full-manual mode. But that's about it. When there are no more and much more difficult and norrow, bending tracks to come to lfs, then sticking to status-quo will indeed be the best solution.
Just look at all those cheapos - like me - sometimes using mouse-steer or sporting one of the simpler "two-pedal and no h-shift" - wheels in lfs. You would definitely exclude these fellow racers when dissing the automated clutch mode.
All-in-all I am happy that at least throttle-cut & -blip is no longer available to the most "sunday-drivers" around. That steepened the learning-curve with the benefit for them, especially, to gain some proper racing-experience right from the start with little chance to get it very wrong. Or in simpler terms: One chance to educate "false lerners" less. A good thing IMHO.
BAK TO TOPIC
For a real Auto-transmission, These driver-aids would have to be re-implemented (shwitched-on, again) 'cause never mind how smooth a real automatic transmission is on drive-shifts, it will most-likely never be as quick as a sequential or manual gearbox when operated with some skill. Thereby racing with an auto would prove pretty much useless. Thing is: in the 1980s, which most LFS-cars' real-world models are coming from, those transmissions AFAIR didn't have the refinement found in some of today's Auto-driven luxury (and mostly very heavy) exotics. So that might be some counting reason not to opt for a full auto, at all.
I find any innuendos of elitism quite out of place, I certainly never have criticized anyone for whatever device they use or said I am better than people who don't happen to have a shifter.
If you call them "cheapos" like it was an insult that's your choice, because I've never used that word against you or anyone else, for the record.
Have you ever seen me online bragging about my wheel or vainly display a [G25] tag? I believe you would have a hard time proving that.
One has the choice of using whatever input device he/she fancies most, OTOH he/she should also face the consequences of whatever shortcomings his/her choice of device carries along.
You can certainly use a mouse but if you complained about the lack of analog control for the pedals, people would tell you to get a wheel and shut up.
But at the same time, non-shifter setups are actively promoted through the excessive skill of those driving helps which were devised to help people cope with limitations of the device, at a time when shifters were much more expensive and uncommon than they are now.
We have a brake help, too, but very few use it because modulating the pedal is regarded as faster. That's the way things should be: driving helps are made available but they do not to make you faster for no reason.
So I say it again, let's remove the button clutch cheat (you're not going to defend cheats, are you?) and then slow down the driving helps so that they become what they were intended to be.
Hold your horses there, mate. Please let me hereby apologize for every single bad feeling I gave you with my previous reply. I honestly didn't intend to to so. I'll take back any even remote accusation or the like that did let you get the impression I was after you personally. I wasn't and never will be, honestly! Obviously my phrases didn't turn out the way I was planning them to do when typing. I certainly never meant the phrase "cheapo" to be used as an insult against anyone. Sorry for the inconvenience. I am able to learn from this, I hope, not to do this again.
I really have a hard time thinking back to ONE occasion where I did this. At least I never did in a complaining manner.
I'm completely with you on that. I was going on about the need to re-implement some aids purely in the sense of simulating a soft-switching automatic transmission the best it could get (soft = slow, meaning it (an auto without throttle blip/-cut) would otherwise completely upset the handling)
So there I guess I did get you very, very wrong before. Sorry. I thought you were referring to that normal settings-option to just assign a button to the clutch-function with some input-devices. If that isn't exactly right then I'll have to look into this further-on.
Ask for a automatic with P R N D is just like ask for a new car, there is a place for it.
About the helper (auto) it is ok the way it is maybe in future correct that tiny details as the floor is going, to shift or not in rev, or look at the transmission to know the perfect time to change each gear.
But the first of all the things should be corrected in the automatic way of lfs is the shift down(while brake). Oh god how I hate this! It simply shift down and step off the clutch as a crazy! NEVER DO THIS! The clutch is NOT on/off!
You are braking, the friction of the motor is working as brakes since the time you left the gas pedal, but you lost speed and the rpm is low(you must never let it happend). Because of that you step on the clutch pedal, shift down one gear, but the the rpm in this gear with this speed have to be much higher, so you move your feet that is on the brake pedal a bit to the right side and step on the gas pedal to make rpm be as close as possible to the way it should be(with this speed and with this new gear you've just shift) and then you are able to put you ugly foot of the clutch pedal and do this again and again (of course faster than the time you read it ¬¬).
If you do not understand imagine the wrong way(lfs auto way). You already shift down but you did not touch at the gas pedal: by the time you left the clutch pedal the side of the clutch that comes from the motor is slower than the part that comes from the wheels so the motor is going to be punched up and the wheels will be punched down, but the tires was already at the limits and it will lost the grip just like it happens when you are driving a F1 in lfs with automatic.
So that the first thing that should be fixed if the game want attract more players that have not proper pedals.
@ all: I only skimmed thru the whole thread so far but I did get the impression you guys say that the "computer assisted shifting in H-shifted lfs-cars" is faster than "real" h-shifting (like G25), right?
if so, I have to disagree. whereas in my pre-G25-time I was often thinking that the assisted shifts are ridiculously fast compared to RL (and I still do), shifting with an h-shifter is actually even faster... and gives you way less problems with clutch overheating (i.e. none).
shifting down is a bit different. a perfect heel-toe is hard to do but that's most probably due to your pedals and not the gearbox.
@bonafernando: I don't know if I got you right - do you campaign for the (re-)implementation of automated rev-match?
generally I also think that helpers should be/stay included but make you slower than a _good_ "unassisted" driver. just like real life.
and finally to the original topic :
Would I use REAL, classic RNP123D-auto-tranny in a race if I had a choice? No!
Would I use an open diff (hello... hint here) in a race if I had a choice? No!
Do I want this features just for fun and "realism aside the race track"? Yes!
So basically this is a +1 with loooow priority for me. AND not as an option for every car but maybe for a vintage american car... or a rolls.
Iv not really read through all the topic I read the first post and afew others.
At presnt the Auto gears is a help to changin gears rather than atuo transmission ( i use them but trying to use manual ) I found you can use the manual keys anyways for down shifting (or keep hold of the acceletor and press the brake key/pedal)
-------------------------------------------------- Would I like this type of system in a car on LFS? Maybe If you could select road mode or race mode
technically what i think about having an auto is the way it performs. like say the game was able to perform auto trans as in real life, no one will have a problem with racing with it. in fact i think it will make racers faster, especially those using a wheel and pedals. not that you would want to with those but just that you can. and auto trans in real life is pretty dynamic in shifting gears depending on how much you put your foot down. so an auto trans just like in real life would be cool, to suit everyone. dynamic shifting (optimum shift point dependent on acceleration) i call it. so you can cruise race or w/e u wanna do
well actually on a drag strip an auto car should be fast...most people i know that drag use automatics. they have some thing tht they press and then they will rev the engine let the turbo spool up and then they will release the button which transfers a huge amount of torque to the wheels. i forgot what its called exactly but i know its faster in drags...
its called a transbrake it utililzs 2 gears to allow you to load the engine up befor lauch.
and auto car is only quicker to a extent it
14 to 60 sec cars manual is faster
from 7 to 14 sec cars auto is faster
below 7 they dont really have a transmission just a bunch of clutch's IE top fuelers only have like 1 gear and 8 clutchs
because automatics are less efficient than manual gearboxes. In a race with an automatic car with 300whp and a manual car with 300whp, the automatic will win. When you're talking about horsepower at the crank, the manual has about 5% less loss from the tranny and it will be faster as long as the driver is decent.
The reason to be used on road courses are already stated.
yeah because during a race if you let off mid turn your tranny is going to think that you are just wanting it to be put into 5th. You want that?
The way the autobox is setup now is good, don't take it out if you update it, but rather, add another version of the automatic so that it will please the cruisers.
