The online racing simulator
Setups needs to go..
(176 posts, started )
Quote from Boris Lozac :So if i don't have 70 hours a week for LFS, that makes me a bad driver?

You're not as good as someone who practices.

Or what's your theory? We all are equal, those who practise cheat!

Hey, actually I'm better then Steve Vai at guitar - only I can just practise 20 mins/day. It's just not fair that he practises 5 hours a day and then plays better then me - now he's a millionaire guitar god and still can't play a pentatonic scale right - life is just so unfair!

Sorry, this may sound a bit cynic, but jeez man, you need to practise to develop your talent. Otherwise we'd all be born the same and die the same... and yes, someone who practices more than me is a better guitar player than me.

But hey, we could all just not practise guitar. Then there would not be one single good guitar player in the world, and then I wouldn't be as bad! Because even Steve Vai, with all the god given talent he has would be nothing if he didn't practise - but he'd still be leagues better than everyone else who doesn't practise ...

So what is it: no setup options and limited practise time? Fast drivers will still be faster...

aceracer
Quote from aceracer :You're not as good as someone who practices.

Or what's your theory? We all are equal, those who practise cheat!

Hey, actually I'm better then Steve Vai at guitar - only I can just practise 20 mins/day. It's just not fair that he practises 5 hours a day and then plays better then me - now he's a millionaire guitar god and still can't play a pentatonic scale right - life is just so unfair!

Sorry, this may sound a bit cynic, but jeez man, you need to practise to develop your talent. Otherwise we'd all be born the same and die the same... and yes, someone who practices more than me is a better guitar player than me.

But hey, we could all just not practise guitar. Then there would not be one single good guitar player in the world, and then I wouldn't be as bad! Because even Steve Vai, with all the god given talent he has would be nothing if he didn't practise - but he'd still be leagues better than everyone else who doesn't practise ...

So what is it: no setup options and limited practise time? Fast drivers will still be faster...

aceracer

Sad but true.
Good example...
I agree aceracer, but that's a whole different subject, i don't know how we got to that in the first place
I just want realistic setup options, and VERY limited ones for the road cars, XFG is a pure road car too, so that means only the suspension, tire presurre, etc..
Quote from Forbin :Any racer worth his salt has a different setup for each of the tracks he goes to, in LFS or real life.

I know that in my case, my setups in LFS did not vary much from track to track, especially if there were no extreme features of the track (e.g. AS4's Eau Rouge, FE's curbs). I started with the same base for each track and tweaked the compression dampers, ARB's, ride height, tires, tire pressure, camber, gearing, and downforce (where applicable). Springs and rebound dampers generally stayed the same.

I see your point but if that is true then would you really need 10 different sets? I am not against your POV just looking to please both sides of the argument. But even you agree LFS level of customization is a little overboard in some areas, most sim games are.
Maybe RBR has it a little easier (or too easy).
Quote from scipy :hate, insults etc...

Go and get yourself some tranquilizers, really.



about practicing: sure, it's everyone's right to practice and hopefully it shows some effect, BUT there's a major anti-realistic point with practicing in LFS: IRL you don't have the same car and the very same track in the very same conditions, open and available and free of traffic 24/7. A significant change to the tracks and maybe even the cars every year or so would definitely freshen up things a bit.

@aceracer: vai isn't able to play a pentatonic scale right? I don't believe this for a second.

@boris: I'm more or less with you here... I don't like this far-from-RL sets and stuff either, but try not to bother too much. you don't really gain that much by finishing a race first. drive with a setup you like on a track you hardly know and be happy about losing only 5 seconds to the fastest guy each lap.
Quote from Boris Lozac :

Second, i don't think one driver is better then the other if he spends 70 hours a week fidling with setup, finding glitches and practice 500 HL's in a day... that's just robotics.


Easy way to sort this would be for Boris to choose a combo, tell someone to join his server and then set the combo he chose, then he can proove his theory.
How has this argument turned into something about difficulty levels associated with setup options?

It's irrelevant, and just makes the "pro limited-setup" argument look petty, or like sour grapes or something.

Everything in the setup options for each car should be there for a reason, because a real world version of that car in that category would be that way. End of story in my opinion. I couldn't care less if that makes it easier for noob to win or even harder.

I don't care about adjustments being there just to let me see the complexity of the physics engine or marvel at it in action either, I don't care about the complexity of the physics engine.

I just want things to be the way (I feel) they would be "in real life". (Which is totally dependant on how the devs or whoever categorise the cars- something I don't care that much about either, I just wish they'd do it, make the decisions and make the changes to the way they can be adjusted and/or the way they look.)
Quote from ajp71 :
Adjustments in real cars are not as precise and cannot be performed trackside so easily. They are mainly for basic setup to account for manufacturing tolerance, accident damage and general bodging. The perfect car wouldn't have much suspension adjustment, producing fastenings and adjustment mechanisms adds drag and weight where you want it least. In reality testing time and data feedback is limited and the car, track and weather are never exactly the same between sessions as they are in the sterile world of LFS atm, personally I think the sterilness is a bigger issue than the freedom of setups, if the cars allowed pointlessly precise setup adjustments that wouldn't be an issue if LFS somehow randomly made slight changes to the shape and structure of the car and all suspension components to accomodate for real life wear and tear on a car, which is really far from a rigid body.

I wasn't debating the point that it is obviously trivial to make setup changes in LFS compared to real cars and the fact that testing can be virtually infinite in LFS. It is a sim, and that is one of the fun things about a sim.

I agree that variability in the track conditions would be a big deal and would greatly add to the challenge. Cars that actually flex and twist around like they do in real life would be good too. That is where the road going XRG would be very squishy and the XRR would be very stiff. Right now, they are probably identical in stiffness, which of course is simply not right.

Yes, I am looking forward to the day when the track warms and cools as the day goes on, where the humidity changes, were even the track condition changes as rubber gets laid down... even having to deal with "klag" as David Hobbs calls it. I am sure the we will get there in time. Throw some rain into the mix with realistic drying patterns, and I think we all will have found nirvana. But, for these things we have to wait and work with what we have.
@Bandit77: Sorry, there was an "I" missing in my post:

"I" cannot play a pentatonic scale right! Vai doesn't even know the concept of "not" playing something right - lol

as to infinite testing: agreed, it may not be real, but it does help me understand a lot about what I'm doing to my car, so I like it to have identical conditions. Cos I don't have to wonder whether it's the change I made which gains me a 10th or whether the track just got faster while I was in pits

I know I know, not realistic, but I for one like tweaking and re-tweaking once I have a nice base set. Fir me that's fun - and it doesn't take away the fun from racing either. Small change every race, see what it does, switch back, try sth else - always makes it interesting to be on track ... but yes, I agree, dynamically changing track conditions would be hugely entertaining!

aceracer
Quote from OmniMoAK :I see your point but if that is true then would you really need 10 different sets?

If you race on 10 different tracks, you need 10 different sets. They might be fairly similar but each track has its own quirks and setup challenges that require a dedicated setup to be as fast as possible.
Quote from Bawbag :Easy way to sort this would be for Boris to choose a combo, tell someone to join his server and then set the combo he chose, then he can proove his theory.

Oh yeah, I've met plenty of fast drivers in LFS, and some of those are actually good, too... But being fast doesn't automatically mean being the other. And practicing 500 hotlaps doesn't make you a better driver, just a faster driver. Which of course makes it easier to win.
Absolutely, couldn't agree more - I always get by arse kicked by faster drivers but actually I think they're no good at all. I'm the best - I'm just not as fast - but I'm better - honest!

Hehe, only kidding, but maybe you could elaborate a little on what you mean? I see it this way: In racing when a guy is faster than me and beats me 5 out of 5 races I am happy to agree that he is the better driver. After all in a race what matters is who finishes first!

So what do yo mean? Are you referring to hotlappers who can't do more than 2 laps without crashing? Then I agree, I consider myself a better driver than some guys who have faster hotlaps than me but never make it to the finish.

Or do you base it on safe and courteous driving - there are guys who never crash and always make it to the finish - but never better than 15 secs down - then I would disagree...

Feel like explaining?

aceracer
Quote from TagForce :Oh yeah, I've met plenty of fast drivers in LFS, and some of those are actually good, too... But being fast doesn't automatically mean being the other. And practicing 500 hotlaps doesn't make you a better driver, just a faster driver. Which of course makes it easier to win.

Exactly why I specificly said for Boris to choose a combo at complete random, so this eliminates the whole "500 laps of practice" bullshit.
The "hotlappers can't race" theory has been disproven time and time again. See Rudy van Buren, Bawbag, MarcG, vincper, and Biohazard. And those are just the ones I've actually raced against.

FWIW, when participating in a league such as OWRL, I typically practiced for 2 nights before a race, plus another 2 hours the day of the race, totalling around 8-12 hours. This includes practice, setup tweaking, and race simulation to determine tire wear and fuel consumption.
Quote from Forbin :The "hotlappers can't race" theory has been disproven time and time again. See Rudy van Buren, Bawbag, MarcG, vincper, and Biohazard. And those are just the ones I've actually raced against.

I don't think its "hotlappers can't race" I think its just SOME hotlappers can't race. I wouldn't consider myself fast at all, but I wouldn't say I'm slow either and I know how to hold my line and its just amazing how some fast guys will just run you over with no proper overtaking attempt made at all. I realize you can't throw everyone into that category though.
wasn't that why you got banned on our servers? Damn, just get out of the way man!

lmao just joking...

Agreed, although I'm not sure that lack of competence - I think it's a head issue. Some hotlappers think they must lap 1/10th away of WR times on all laps, including when they have 5 opponents around them ... I also find that quite annoying...

aceracer
We can put this to bed really easily.

Three server side options.

-Forced setup "SETUPNAME" or "DEFAULT"
-Limit set options.
-Normal

Here's my two cents concerning the debate.

Limiting setup options can be or can not be a good idea. It all depends on the reasons invoked :
- Reason 1) In real life you don't have such precision adjustability for aftermarket parts on road cars. Valid point, makes sense <-- [GOOD REASON].
- Reason 2) People make setups that doesn't make any sense for me, and any attempt of making my own setup result in a fail, so let's limit those options because I want to be as competitive as them. Jealousy, lack of dedication. <-- [BAD REASON]

Apart from racing, one of the thing I really enjoy with LFS is messing with setups and increasing my knowledge about car dynamics. When I work on a setup, it can take me up to monthes to find the perfect settings for me. When I look at some SetupGrid or Inferno setups, I sometimes don't see the point of some of their specific settings. For instance, in a RWD car, Toe In at the front is something I find quite stupid, and when I switched to toe out at the front, my laps improved by around 0.7% of the WR time. (so a range from 0.4 to 1.2 seconds depending on the length of the track). But I'm sure it makes sense for their view of setuping, and that they are more comfortable with it, and that is what matters.

Let's take the example of FWD cars. People say "God, I can't understand why a XFG doesn't suffer from massive understeer at the exits, as it should do...". This is the trick of setuping, because people want to make the cars more balanced overally. Let's take a look at the toe at rear wheels on a FWD race cars IRL. You'll notice they have slight toe out at the rear, in order to prevent that understeer to happen, especially in exits. But is it unrealistic ? Is it unrealistic to dedicate your time when making setups to prevent a FWD car from understeering really bad at the exit? No, it's the job of what a proper setup can do.

What would be unrealistic is if your XFG could spin the real wheels like the XRT, with a tuned setups, which is not the case...

Chopping seconds and positions off your records is something very gratifying in LFS, but there is also a "quest" about making your own setup as fast as it could be, which is also very gratifying as well

A final thing about setups ? The best way to make a setup isn't to follow advices of LFS Manual. LFS Manual is a very good beginner's guide to understanding how a car can behave, but you can only fully grasp the importance of each increment you change while testing them, in respect with what you have learnt about setuping, should it be on LFS manual, race books, etc.
Quote from UncleBenny :I don't think its "hotlappers can't race" I think its just SOME hotlappers can't race. I wouldn't consider myself fast at all, but I wouldn't say I'm slow either and I know how to hold my line and its just amazing how some fast guys will just run you over with no proper overtaking attempt made at all. I realize you can't throw everyone into that category though.

The problem is they tend to think that "Well person X is slower than me, they should move out of my way because they know I'm quicker than them"..

Then they stop thinking "fairly", and decide to "get past" with little concern to thier fellow racers. Some hotlappers can't 'race', by race I mean pass cleanly, drive in traffic etc. Not all, some.
Count how many fast hotlappers there are, then count how many of them you've had bad experiences with, then have a read of your post.

That's like saying all school teachers are bad because one of them called me fat.
Quote from Bawbag :Count how many fast hotlappers there are, then count how many of them you've had bad experiences with, then have a read of your post.

That's like saying all school teachers are bad because one of them called me fat.

I think aceracer made a good point actually. Its not hotlappers that are a problem, its people who take the "hotlap" mentality racing with them. They may or may not actually be hotlappers, but they seem to give hotlappers a bad name. Not sure how this even came up, this has nothing to do with setups.
Quote from S14 DRIFT :The problem is they tend to think that "Well person X is slower than me, they should move out of my way because they know I'm quicker than them"..

I saw you bark that at someone last night so don't start passing judgment on anybody else.

This has gone wildly off topic and everything has been said before, but then I guess everything on topic has been said before too so.......
Difference is, I said that in a "jokey" manner, hence the unusual selection of emoticons which followed, if you noticed that.
Quote from S14 DRIFT :Difference is, I said that in a "jokey" manner, hence the unusual selection of emoticons which followed, if you noticed that.

Well with simultaneous horn blasts you came across like a tit. @ &

I get that quite alot!

Sorry your sarcasm detector is brokened


Hope yu still luv mi. :cry:

Setups needs to go..
(176 posts, started )
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