Quote from Ziploc :

We can put this to bed really easily.

Three server side options.

-Forced setup "SETUPNAME" or "DEFAULT"
-Limit set options.
-Normal

I agree with this sort of soloution.

Some racers pratice ALOT and have good setups and thats all fine and dandy but i dont. I have exams to do and school to go to, stuff to do etc... so im not as good as some others with or without their setups. But i would like to eliminate setup ups as an excuse for not being able to keep up with people. So i agree you can keep all the options and stuff but there should be a few servers in which you HAVE to use the RACE_S set or some other more specific one, either way there should be a server for 'Recreational racers' like myself where set ups are not a factor. and then if you want to change setups go join another server

Quote from 010010011010 :

I agree with this sort of soloution.

Some racers pratice ALOT and have good setups and thats all fine and dandy but i dont. I have exams to do and school to go to, stuff to do etc... so im not as good as some others with or without their setups. But i would like to eliminate setup ups as an excuse for not being able to keep up with people. So i agree you can keep all the options and stuff but there should be a few servers in which you HAVE to use the RACE_S set or some other more specific one, either way there should be a server for 'Recreational racers' like myself where set ups are not a factor. and then if you want to change setups go join another server

So basically we should break up an already small community even more? Bad idea in my opinion.

It is not that hard to go find a set on Inferno or Setupfield to race with. Or do a race or two on a server and then ask someone if you can use their set, most people have no problem sharing.

Absolutely! The "set issue" resolves itself in a matter of minutes:

Either go to setup field or:

1) wait for race to end
2) ask winner or fastest lap driver for set

Sorted. 99% of drivers will share their set - I always share all of mine. If someone doesn't, just ask the next best, it'll be just as good.

Drive next race - if it's an "alien" set or a "drifty set" or whatever you can't drive comfortably with do this:

1) 1 nudge up on both wings, or just rear wing if rear steps out too much
2) 1 nudge down on brake power
3) if you can't control under accel use clutch pack - use low locking power, around 30 to 35

These tweaks take 30 secs to do and are a very basic instant result procedure. They will only cost you a couple of tenths in laptime on most tracks.

This is way better than having a pre-defined setup locked to a server because everyone can race a competitve set and within seconds ahe it adjusted to any skill level.

As opposed to having "recreational driver set" which doesn't really do anything for anyone.

my $.02

aceracer

Quote from UncleBenny :

It is not that hard to go find a set on Inferno or Setupfield to race with. Or do a race or two on a server and then ask someone if you can use their set, most people have no problem sharing.

that doesn't really change anything, if you reconsider it.


IMO, there MUST be racing without setting up, really - not only because there quite a few drivers who would appreciate it.

If you're against it, you're neglecting these drivers... if you say they're only a few anyway, the argument of breaking up a small community is none.


sidenote: I could be wrong, but the ones wanting fixed / very limited setups might not be talking about formula or GT cars. I think it's more about the road cars, which IRL can't be greatly adjusted either.

Quote from Bandit77 :

that doesn't really change anything, if you reconsider it.

What doesn't it change? If you are saying that you might not like how the set you get handles...well what if you don't like the default set the is being enforced on a server? You're still stuck in the same boat. At least now you have the option to fix the problem if you should choose to.

Also for those who say enforcing sets will fix the problem of people complaining that they aren't fast because the don't have a good set, I don't think that will be the case. Instead people will just complain that the default set is too loose, too tight, too whatever. There is no way to make everyone happy with a server enforced set.

For me setups are not just about speed I still use 2 year old setups on many server because I like how the car feels using them ,restricting setups Is not the problem we have in LFS, go to a busy server, watch a few races, the problem will rear its ugly head pretty quickly.


Bad driving breeds even worse driving

Quote from UncleBenny :

I don't think its "hotlappers can't race" I think its just SOME hotlappers can't race. I wouldn't consider myself fast at all, but I wouldn't say I'm slow either and I know how to hold my line and its just amazing how some fast guys will just run you over with no proper overtaking attempt made at all. I realize you can't throw everyone into that category though.

It's also that some hotlappers lack seasoning in racecraft--aka driving respectfully around other drivers, and understanding that you won't be able to get near WR pace on every lap. Again, some hotlappers.

Quote from JohnPenn :

For me setups are not just about speed I still use 2 year old setups on many server because I like how the car feels using them ,restricting setups Is not the problem we have in LFS, go to a busy server, watch a few races, the problem will rear its ugly head pretty quickly.


Bad driving breeds even worse driving

Mm, you're right there.

I mean, I hope the devs don't restrict setups that we already have (i.e old cars won't suddenly become underdeveloped and lacking in setups).

If this must happen, how about only doing it on new cars, as to not cause undue tension within the community? Some may say that by doing this it's creating a "double standard". The fact is that some cars we have had since the beginning of LFS... others we've had for a couple of years since S2.. either way, it's better to restrict new cars, because that way, no-one has to relearn anything, since it's a new car, after all.

Quote from Bawbag :

That's like saying all school teachers are bad because one of them called me fat.

Tell daddy who it was, we'll take care of it.

Quote from Bawbag :

That's like saying all school teachers are bad because one of them called me fat.

Quote from scipy :

Tell daddy who it was, we'll take care of it.

Actually, all of but one of them was a liar.

I'm not involved in any kind of motorsport besides LFS and some other Sims in the past. I drive a oversized 4x4 tahoe and work in a cube. If anyone would like to discredit me for that please go right ahead. I've left myself wide open with that statement. You can take whatever I have to say however you want to.

Here are my thoughts. I think limted setups can serve a purpose. I want to find out what that is like with the Scirocco. This should be a good measure of what it will bring to LFS.

At the same time though racing and competitive motorsports is about taking what you have and making the best of it to win. At this point in LFS we have a lot of setup options. Any driver that doesn't look at what they have and use it to win doesn't really want to win. I for one don't like Locked Diffs, but in some cases I'll use it if the purpose serves me. If tomorrow the setup options change entireley in LFS then we are still in the same situation we are in now. What I mean is we have to take what we have and use it to win like we have always had to do.

Thanks for reading.

Jay Odom

Finally we have some wise Americans! Uncle Benny and jbirdaspect, you both have some good points here.

Close racing comes from skills and setup. I'd say around 80-85% skills and 15-20% setup.
A setup is a tool, it isn't a finality. A good driver uses the best setup for him to maximize his skills, not the other way around.

Just to get an example, take Tweak, take the LX4 and double the engine size (2800 inline 8), you should be around 300-320 hp, which would surely be enough to ensure a good time, with the appropriate gear ratios...
Unless you are already good, you won't be able to come anywhere far from the WR.

Now give that tweak to the WR holder, and he'll beat his time easily... It is such a bullshit to tell that people are fast just because of their car, and it is as well very mean, and a clear sign of a frustrated mind. A sprinter won't remove a whole second out of his time just because he has the best shoes ever... It's the same for racing. It is a sport, some people are more talented than the others and unless you dedicate time to reach their pace, you'll go nowhere.

That said, close racing doesn't mean all the time fast racing. If you go to CTRA 1, you will have some close racing with people that aren't THAT fast (except the podium holder that usually have a gold or platinum license).
If winning is all what matters, or being relatively faster than the others, go to a drift server and start racing. If the two conditions above are what satisfy you the most, then you'll enjoy yourself a lot

Quote from UncleBenny :

What doesn't it change?

The point is, you will still not have the "same" car as the rest of the field. I agree with you on the problem with the default set not pleasing everyone though. So VERY limited setups might be the better option. For the road cars maybe 2 or 3 damper/spring combinations but still relatively greatly adjustable ARBs... or something - and definitely a set diff. the higher you go in classes, the more options you get. no two drivers in F1 have the same set, right?
Racing the smaller cars should become a bit less scientific, IMO.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

...
I mean, I hope the devs don't restrict setups that we already have (i.e old cars won't suddenly become underdeveloped and lacking in setups).
[...] because that way, no-one has to relearn anything, since it's a new car, after all.

... and some people were blamed because they said they don't want to spend their time on setups.
I think it would freshen up the challenge a lot.

Quote from Zen321 :

Finally we have some wise Americans!

it already started fishy.

Quote :

Just to get an example, take Tweak, take the LX4 and double the engine size (2800 inline 8), you should be around 300-320 hp, which would surely be enough to ensure a good time, with the appropriate gear ratios...
Unless you are already good, you won't be able to come anywhere far from the WR.

Now give that tweak to the WR holder, and he'll beat his time easily...

says who? you? based on what?

Quote :

A sprinter won't remove a whole second out of his time just because he has the best shoes ever... It's the same for racing.

you're not good at decent analogies, so don't.

Quote :

If winning is all what matters, or being relatively faster than the others,

that started off ok...

Quote :

go to a drift server and start racing. If the two conditions above are what satisfy you the most, then you'll enjoy yourself a lot

... and turns into an unneeded bash, really.

Quote from Forbin :

Any racer worth his salt has a different setup for each of the tracks he goes to, in LFS or real life.

I know that in my case, my setups in LFS did not vary much from track to track, especially if there were no extreme features of the track (e.g. AS4's Eau Rouge, FE's curbs). I started with the same base for each track and tweaked the compression dampers, ARB's, ride height, tires, tire pressure, camber, gearing, and downforce (where applicable). Springs and rebound dampers generally stayed the same.

Which at the end of the day is how it would be in real life. Take any vehicle and it has basic dynamic characteristics. Once you've got the basic things like damping/spring rates set so that the car handles correctly/optimally, (call it what you will), for your driving style then track to track changes should really be relatively minor. I look at some of the LFS sets for the same car and there can be huge variations in things like spring rates and arb settings for different circuits. This just isn't realistic IMO. For example there is no real reason to be increasing the springing of the front of a particular car by say 60% for one circuit over another. There aren't any major steep gradient down hill braking zones on any of the LFS tracks that spring to mind??. Why would a car need to be massively oversteery on one circuit and massively understeery on another?? (for the same driver)

You can even have a massively oversteery on one corner and massively understeery for another - on the same track!

Ok, maybe a bit exaggerated, but I played around with it a bit and it' not that stupid.

For the FZRs you can change brakes and rollbars on the fly. So I developed a set and a routine where on AS3 I would put brake pressure a couple of clicks back and softer rollbars for the 2 hairpin section to get a grippier oversterry car through there, then change it back to previous for the chicane where I preferred cleaner and more direct handling. And stiffen it a little more for the long and fast 4th gear turn 1.

Of course this is over the top, and in the end all the button pushing was more stressful than anything else, but I did get fast latpimes with it and it was easy on tires.

So if you can set up a car for one corner, or one part pf the track to be quite different than another, just think of how different setups can be for different tracks!

aceracer

Another thing, is that you don't have all day, and brand new tyres every session, and a new engine that you can shift + p etc in real life, so you don't do extensive testing like you can on LFS. That is why you see some different sets, and sets you wouldn't 'expect' to work.

Here's something else to ponder, what effect to control systems have on an individual's setup?

I'm making the leap in logic that nearly all the responders to this thread are playing on a wheel. There are people that are WR holders that drive with a mouse. The overwhelming point is that different control schema necessitate the ability to change the way the car drives.

As an example, my experience playing LFS changed pretty drastically about a month and half ago when I bought a new wheel. I started playing LFS on a wheel that was orphaned at my apartment; it was an old Logitech Driving Force without the power adapter for the FFB. I bought a Logitech DFP the day after Christmas and pretty much had to relearn how to drive.

I think the option to tweak setups needs to stay in the game. I think the experience of playing LFS would impacted pretty greatly if setups were limited or servers forced a spec set.

other topic have touched the "wheel vs. no wheel" issue too.

IMHO, you have to cope with what you have. you can't expect a "simulator" to completely make up for suboptimal input devices.
Is it a sim when a wheel user and a gamepad user have the same chances?
It's great that it's actually possible to drive with something else than a wheel and it should stay this way, but you have to face the consequences.

Quote from Bandit77 :

... and some people were blamed because they said they don't want to spend their time on setups.
I think it would freshen up the challenge a lot.

Well tbh, I only really race XFG and XRT on CTRA (that's pretty much all the racing I do).

I made a set for both, which took a bit of time but I use the same setup on every track. Both cars have 'winnable' setups, I'm banging on the doors of lap records on most S1 combos, and this isn't because of 'the setup' - I know exactly what the car will do if I do <something>, and can drive accordingly. Give my setup to someone who doesn't know (and I've tested it, don't worry) and they'll find themselves slower than before.

If I'm racing a car that I'm not familiar with (i.e I don't have a setup which I know will do X if I do Y) then a simple check to Team Inferno or Setupgrid will normally supply me with a setup. Failing that I'll ask the people on the server...

Although that's my view, you can see where I'm going - The average Joe doesn't have to spend time on setups - There are people that make perfectly acceptable public setups and share them... that way everyone wins. People that like making setups can still enjoy the challenge to tuning a car to shave 0.01 second from a WR, and those who don't have the skills/time to setup a car can still be competitive if they have the driving skills.

Too many people blame setup when, in actual fact, they can't drive!

Quote from UncleBenny :

So basically we should break up an already small community even more? Bad idea in my opinion.

theres hundreds of servers online, hows having a few (or even just the opition to have a few) for not-so-serious racers going to break up the community?

oh and dont get me wrong, i dont blame set-ups for my lack of pace, but it would be nice to have a server with a for ones who arent into sets and stuff. kinda like the equivlient of really low-cost racing in real life.

Quote from Bandit77 :

other topic have touched the "wheel vs. no wheel" issue too.

I was not aware of that; thank you.

I can still very much see the situation where someone using a mouse would need the car to react within the limitations of the input device. This, of course, would necessitate setup options.

Quote from 010010011010 :

theres hundreds of servers online, hows having a few (or even just the opition to have a few) for not-so-serious racers going to break up the community?

oh and dont get me wrong, i dont blame set-ups for my lack of pace, but it would be nice to have a server with a for ones who arent into sets and stuff. kinda like the equivlient of really low-cost racing in real life.

Low-cost racing is for the financially challenged. Since sim-racing is essentially free by comparison, restricted-setup sim-racing serves only one purpose: catering to the mentally challenged.

The idea of "low-cost" racing is rather silly, too. Take WERA here in the United States, for example. They're a national motorcycle racing league and most classes are split into Superstock and Superbike. Superstock has lots of restrictions on modifications and requires the use of DOT-approved tires. Superbike has practically no restrictions at all and allows the use of slick tires.

Now you would think slicks would be at least a bit more expensive than the "street" tires and thus make Superstock less expensive. However, the DOT-approved tires are little more than slicks with some grooves in them. And the price difference? Zero. They both cost $400 USD per set.

Quote from Forbin :

Low-cost racing is for the financially challenged. Since sim-racing is essentially free by comparison, restricted-setup sim-racing serves only one purpose: catering to the mentally challenged.

ahaha... calling people who like racing under other conditions "mentally challenged" is a bit over the top, to say the least.

... and is there any other details about your bike racing that you haven't told us so far?

Quote from Bandit77 :

ahaha... calling people who like racing under other conditions "mentally challenged" is a bit over the top, to say the least.

... and is there any other details about your bike racing that you haven't told us so far?

Actually, it's not over the top, not even a bit. IMO the only restriction in any racing class should be power to weight ratio and tire width - so you can fit 5 different types of cars in a class, and anyone can choose their weapon of choice. Also if your running a "cup" or anything similar setups should not be restricted in any way, why would someone who has the knowledge to give themselves a completley legal advantage be put in the same failboat as the whiner who just came there with no prep work at all and thinks he should have the same chance at winning.

In simracing it's even worse, many of the aspects that a good driver and/or race engineer would consider in real life racing are completley absent in simracing, there is no taking care of a car, keeping track of how many miles each component has and when they have to be changed, or a gazillion other things that help smart people get the car across the finish line. So, with all those "advantages" already gone, can you seriously argue some kind of locked setups and "equality"? It is for the mentally challanged.

Ok, stfu Scipy already... I had respect for you, laughed to your random jokes on Mirc, etc... if i only knew your such a two-face fa* on time..